A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life

Sadras

Legend
(snip)...to me it sounds like the action declaration might have had the goal of helping to establish the parameters of the setting, but by way of in-character interaction rather than out-of-character interaction.

The distinction you make here I find interesting. I've never considered it like that.

Even though that in-character interaction might be framed as an action declaration ("I ask the merchant to sell me an XYZ!"), if it's real purpose is as I've suggested then it's not really an action declaration at all, because it's not an attempt to change the shared fiction but simply to learn more about its parameters. I think this sort of thing is quite common from new players who are introduced to the game via certain approaches to play that I might (tentatively) call "classic immersion style". Whereas someone who is introduced by way of a very up-front "session zero"-type approach, or who reads a rulebook or sourcebook that sets out genre expectations, what is or isn't possible, etc probably won't need to do that sort of thing, because they would have those other ways of gathering the requisite information.

Impressed. In fact this player has primarily learned the game via this "classic immersion style" - as he regularly watches Critical Role and has very much been influenced by same. This is something I feel our table as somewhat lost or forgotten along the way, no to say we do not throw some roleplaying dialogue around, but perhaps not on the level of this new player whose idea of roleplaying is very much informed by what he has seen on CR.
 

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Numidius

Adventurer
The distinction you make here I find interesting. I've never considered it like that.



Impressed. In fact this player has primarily learned the game via this "classic immersion style" - as he regularly watches Critical Role and has very much been influenced by same. This is something I feel our table as somewhat lost or forgotten along the way, no to say we do not throw some roleplaying dialogue around, but perhaps not on the level of this new player whose idea of roleplaying is very much informed by what he has seen on CR.
Your answer to the questioning newcomer appears pretty good, btw. You offered two more elements of the setting to explore in search of those magical gems, the lowly wizards market and the elf community.
 

Numidius

Adventurer
The only game where I'm a player at the moment is a BW game which has big gaps between sessions (trying to squeeze too many active campaigns into too few Sundays). When I'm playing, I don't need to think about big picture stuff and how to manage the outcomes of action resolution - I just declare actions that seem fitting for Thurgon von Pfizer, Last Knight of the Iron Tower.

Which is to say that I approach GMing and playing as quite different roles.

All of the above said, I (pemerton, not Thurgon) paid for some relationship as part of my build of Thurgon - and if the GM unilaterally deprived me of them I'd feel a bit gipped. But I do expect him to put pressure on them - eg in our last session I (Thurgon) was exploring the tower of Evard the sorcerer and found some old letters that suggested that Evard is, in fact, my grandfather. Thurgon's build includes a relationship with his mother and an affiliation with his family; Evard was a character whose existence, and whose tower's existence, as part of the shared fiction was established by a successful Great Masters-wise check made for Thurgon's offsider Aramina, the cynical sorcerer who for some as-yet unestablished reason hangs out with him. So discovering evidence that suggests dubious parentage for Thurgon is a very legitimate way of establishing pressure.

Naturally Thurgon gathered up all the old letters and burned them.
(Off Topic: is there somewhere I can read your char gen for BW, and/or session reports? Thanks)
 

Maybe that's because they don't agree with you that it's false!

You don't persuade people that your game doesn't have a feature they dislike by arguing terminology with them. You do that by explaining how your game doesn't really have that feature!

(Of course you might also allow that the game does have the feature, but explain why they're wrong to dislike it. But that's still not an issue of terminology - it's an issue of substance, about how a game works and what is valuable, or not valuable, about that.)

But people have only been arguing about the terminology. No one is saying this campaign suited your style, or that you should overlook my method of resolving what is at the tea house. We simply maintained it wasn't Mother May I. Mother May I as a term would be like me contrasting "stinky poo scene framing" versus "fragrant aroma sandbox play". If you don't like the GMing making the call in the way I described, I have zero issue (and zero interest in persuading you toward a style you don't like). But if "mother may I" is the label used to analyze the play, I think you truly won't understand why people like it. And I think this plays out in the discussion, because your conclusions about styles you dislike don't seem to be objective, they veer into moral opprobrium or outright dismissal.
 
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Sadras

Legend
Your answer to the questioning newcomer appears pretty good, btw. You offered two more elements of the setting to explore in search of those magical gems, the lowly wizards market and the elf community.

Thank you. To be honest the question caught me off-guard, and although I'm fairly familiar with the setting (history, terrain, people, geography, politics and the like) questions that focus on magical items still unnerve me unless I have prepared for it.
The answer bought me more time to prepare (the elven settlement will be touched on next session) and lowly arcanist is something I'm more comfortable to handle on the spot (consumables and the like).
 

Sadras

Legend
But people have only been arguing about the terminology. No one is saying this campaign suited your style, or that you should overlook my method of resolving what is at the tea house. We simply maintained it wasn't Mother May I. Mother May I as a term would be like me contrasting "stinky poo scene framing" versus "fragrant aroma sandbox play". If you don't like the GMing making the call in the way I described, I have zero issue (and zero interest in persuading you toward a style you don't like). But if "mother may I" is the label used to analyze the play, I think you truly won't understand why people like it. And I think this plays out in the discussion, because your conclusions about styles you dislike don't seem to be objective, they veer into moral opprobrium or outright dismissal.

Just to add to this, which I'm sure you have covered previously.

Say Yes
Roll the Dice
Say No
Co-Authoring
Table-Ruling via Consensus
Table-Ruling via DM
Player Adding a backstory element
Player Authoring upon success of check
Fail Forward
Success, with Complication
In-Character Dialogue Scene
and many others...

Are various tools that we use at our table.
To label all that as Mother-May-I, because I adopt the Say No in my DMing toolbelt is short-sighted, reflects a terrible lack of understanding, a dismissive attitude with likely an undertone of nasty, given that the description is by many considered a pejorative.

I cannot understand why the other side does not see this.
 
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Numidius

Adventurer
Thank you. To be honest the question caught me off-guard, and although I'm fairly familiar with the setting (history, terrain, people, geography, politics and the like) questions that focus on magical items still unnerve me unless I have prepared for it.
The answer bought me more time to prepare (the elven settlement will be touched on next session) and lowly arcanist is something I'm more comfortable to handle on the spot (consumables and the like).
Same, here. It does put me off when newcomers or old friends entering the game ask immediately for a magic weapon, using a MMI attitude before even starting to play.
After explaining there are no +1 swords in the game to begin with, I ask the player about rumours, a legend, anything, surrounding this fabled magic weapon, from the POV of Pc class/race. Then start thinking/tinkering to come up with a decent Move (power/flaw) for it, involving the player in the process. By this time they usually give up the magic sword pretension (unfortunately ;) ).
 

Aldarc

Legend
Just to add to this, which I'm sure you have covered previously.

Say Yes
Roll the Dice
Say No
Co-Authoring
Table-Ruling via Consensus
Table-Ruling via DM
Player Adding a backstory element
Player Authoring upon success of check
Fail Forward
Success, with Complication
In-Character Dialogue Scene
and many others...

Are various tools that we use at our table.
A good start...

To label all that as Mother-May-I, because I adopt the Say No in my DMing toolbelt is short-sighted, reflects a terrible lack of understanding, a dismissive attitude with likely an undertone of nasty, given that the description is by many considered a pejorative.

I cannot understand why the other side does not see this.
...that sadly went down hill fast and lost a lot of my good will with it.
 

Numidius

Adventurer
[MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] you would have used RtD in [MENTION=463]S'mon[/MENTION]'s scenario or would you have said yes, having the wife been an extension of the player's control?
No one asked, but my rule of thumb is: Named Npc are under Gm control, Not yet named (minions or bystanders) ones are open to suggestion/usage from the players in the present scene. Should they become companions, Dw offer rules for managing them depending on what they want from the Pc: money, doing good deeds, glory etc.

Btw, the first thing I noticed in 5e was the lacking of a Social Combat/resolution, so to speak. Useful in a situation like the Barbarian and his wife.
 

Numidius

Adventurer
I can happily accept that in certain cases the single right answer isn't ascertainable - there are limits to human epistemic prowess - but there is a single right set of possibilities - either the infantry withstand the charge, or they break - and this is disciplining the referee's decision to set some odds and call for the roll.

In the individual-level human behaviour cases, my view is that there is no single right set of possibilities, because where individual-level human behaviour is concerned that already admits indefinitely many possibilities. That's not to say anything goes - I think that most tables would accept that if Tanis meets Kitiara on the field of battle she's not going to rush up and offer him a rose - but the range of possibilities is very great - certainly more than two - and so there is no objective answer in that respect before we even get to the point of setting the odds.

I think this is what, in the history of RPG development, has driven (as a trend, not uniformally) character/theme-driven RPGing towards "say 'yes' or roll the dice", or similar sorts of approaches. (Ie I don't think this is just a coincidental convergence.) I'll try and explain why.

In the Waterloo example, there's also a sense in which there are indefinitely many possibilities - it's always possible that, right at that moment, an earthquake occurs and swallows up the infantry line, or a great wave sweeps them away (Belgium is a flat country, though Waterloo is a fair way inland, but hopefully you get my point), or whatever. But those possibilities are sufficiently remote and non-salient that the referee doesn't need to bother with them. The only salient possibilities are objectively ascertainable - holding or breaking.

In the Tanis-and-Kitiara example, how do we decide what the salient possibilities are, given the indefinite range of possible and plausible responses in human interaction? One way is GM chooses, which is the traditional way of running the DL modules. The other obvious way is that each participant in the play situation - player and GM - gets to nominate a salient possibility. The player puts forward his/hers, the GM puts forward his/hers. Then, when the dice are rolled, if the player wins his/her choice comes good; if the player loses the GM's choice comes good.

And this can be generalised to any situation in the game in which the inherent possibilities are multiple, but in which the player and GM can each fasten on one as the one s/he wants to put forward. It can handle not only Where can we find some sect members, where the player puts forward "In the teahouse" as their salient possibility, but even purely binary matters like Is there a secret door here? It seems that "yes" and "no" are the only possible options in this latter case, but if both are plausible then this can be resolved by the player opting for one, the GM the other, and making a check to see which is to be the case.

So I think it is the individual-level human-behaviour stuff - which is at the heart of character-driven play - that creates the impetus for "say 'yes' or roll the dice", but the method turns out to be easily generalised to all parts of the game, including doing "exploration" using the same dice-based resolution approach as we use for other elements of play, rather than relying on maps and notes as per the wargaming tradition. (In a Waterloo free kriegsspiel, rather than "Is there a secret door" one player might ask "Are their clouds"? I can imagine the referee rolling dice to determine the answer. But I think in free kriegsspiel that wouldn't be the default approach to establishing these "backstory" elements.)

And once exploration is done in that way, it too gets swallowed up into the theme stuff - if no one cares about secret doors than dice will never be rolled to determine whether or not there are any, but maybe the presence of curtains in rooms becomes a hot issue for that table for whatever reason. (Why do D&D maps and keys obsess over room height but not ceiling colour? I guess because we have a wall-climbing thief class, and rules for monster size and weapon length and the like, but no colour mage or interior decorator class. Given that we do have a druid class, why do D&D maps and keys not obsess over what plant life and (non-giant) vermin live in the dungeon? I guess because the druid is something of an ad hoc add on to the core dungeoneering game!)

In this way I think the move away from GM chooses for certain sorts of character-driven stuff leads to a more general move away from a wargame-type way of establishing setting and backstory to a much more "narrative"/"thematic" way of doing so. There's an inner logic to it, though obviously not every game has to travel all the way along the logical arrow.
Speaking of The batte of Waterloo and human psycology, I point out the importance of the backstory of Marshal Ney (coming from a series of unsuccessful battles, and maybe wanting to prove himself), leading Napoleon's cavalry in an epic fail charge against the English infantry, mistaking their removing of casualties from the field for a retreat, and thus not bothering of backing up his cavalry with infantry.

An extract from Wikipedia on the psycological effect of the above cavalry charge:

A British eyewitness of the first French cavalry attack, an officer in the Foot Guards, recorded his impressions very lucidly and somewhat poetically:

About four p.m., the enemy's artillery in front of us ceased firing all of a sudden, and we saw large masses of cavalry advance: not a man present who survived could have forgotten in after life the awful grandeur of that charge. You discovered at a distance what appeared to be an overwhelming, long moving line, which, ever advancing, glittered like a stormy wave of the sea when it catches the sunlight. On they came until they got near enough, whilst the very earth seemed to vibrate beneath the thundering tramp of the mounted host. One might suppose that nothing could have resisted the shock of this terrible moving mass. They were the famous cuirassiers, almost all old soldiers, who had distinguished themselves on most of the battlefields of Europe. In an almost incredibly short period they were within twenty yards of us, shouting "Vive l'Empereur!" The word of command, "Prepare to receive cavalry", had been given, every man in the front ranks knelt, and a wall bristling with steel, held together by steady hands, presented itself to the infuriated cuirassiers.

— Captain Rees Howell Gronow, Foot Guards.
 

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