A good month for Robin (spoilers for Identity Crisis 5 and Batman 633 and Titans 17)

[dreaded_beast]

And by the way, am I the only one that thought that Batman was being way too proud and arrogant? I mean, one phone call to Superman, the Flash, one of the Green Lanterns, etc., and Blask Mask is caught and put in jail. There, done. War over. No more fatalities.

James Robinson made a point of how the first Starman was a hero precisely because he swallowed his pride and called his friends when there was too much going on in his city for him to deal with on his own. (The Ragdoll business)

But isn't that one Batman's flaws, he almost never knows when to ask for help?

Note: I love Batman, but am now means an expert or "fanboy" (fanboy not meant in a negative sense, more of a term to use for someone who has much knowledge on the subject, more so than another fan of said subject )

Back to topic, I wasn't really into the idea of Robin, until I started watching Batman the Animated Series, then reading about the Tim Drake Robin, and then watching Robin on Teen Titans.

Anyways, can't wait to see what happens next. I don't read the comic, so I just wait for the trade paperbacks to come out.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

And by the way, am I the only one that thought that Batman was being way too proud and arrogant? I mean, one phone call to Superman, the Flash, one of the Green Lanterns, etc., and Blask Mask is caught and put in jail. There, done. War over. No more fatalities.

You could say that about every villain Batman fights. Calling in Superman is simplicity itself. But at one point do you cease being a hero and become some other hero's contact, instead?

Likewise, you could do the reverse. Half the world's villains would be in jail in days, if any of the Green Lanterns gave Batman their ring. Or if Superman used the lightning-trick to transfer his powers to Batman.

But none of them do that. Why? Because a hero has to stand on his own two feet, not pass the buck every time things get tough. Otherwise he should get out of the business.

 

[Particle_Man]

But...but...heroes DO team up! I mean, that is what the Justice League of America is (and Batman is usually a member of that). And there is a comic that specifically teams up Superman and Batman right now (I forget its name). And there used to be a comic called Batman and the Outsiders, where Batman seemed to be dealing with a lot of superpowered folk as allies. Surely heroes are no less heroes when they team up.

Also, I am not suggesting Batman call in help everytime. But this time seems pretty major. Spoiler's death would make it high priority, if nothing else.

Superman would have been useful in two ways. a) Superman could have caught Black Mask. Heck, Superman could STILL help catch Black Mask, because Black Mask's voice was caught on tape and Superman could use his super-hearing to hear Black Mask talking. b) Superman can pull one of his greatest powers out: Great PR. Almost everyone trusts Superman, and if he speaks up for Batman publically, maybe the Gotham cops will pull back on that whole "shoot the batfamily to kill" thing

Spoiler

that "winged" Nightwing.

So we might be arguing over percentages, on how often Batman should call for help. We would both agree that Batman shouldn't call for help every single time. But I think that there are times when Batman should call for help, and that this was/is one of those times.

 

[Cthulhudrew]

And there is a comic that specifically teams up Superman and Batman right now (I forget its name).

Oddly enough, it's called Superman/Batman.

 

[dreaded_beast]

IMO, I think their are 2 different types of team-ups for Batman:

1. Non-super-powered heroes (Nightwing, Robin, Oracle, etc.)
2. Super-powered heroes (Superman, Justice League, etc.)

In my opinion, Batman considers his non-super-powered team-ups more "trustworthy". By this I mean he allows them to get "close/intimate" with him, and I don't mean that in a sexual way. Most of them have been to the Batcave on several occassions, meet Alfred, etc.

On the otherhand, his super-powered allies, while comrades, are still a possible threat in his eyes. To him, he is not entirely sure that they will not use their powers for evil ends. Which led him to create strategies on how to defeat each one of his allies in the Justice League. Even one of his closest "friends" Superman, falls under this scrutiny.

Based on the above, I believe Batman is more willing to get "close" to non-super-powered beings, since they would not pose a great threat compared to the super-powered beings. IMO, Batman has always had a slight prejudice against super-powered individuals, no longer considering them to be entirely human, and no longer trustworthy as a result. For example, although he is close friends with Superman, Batman is not sure if Supeman is entirely loyal to the human race, since Superman is not technically human.

So, IMO, Batman is willing to ask for help, but when he does, it is mainly from the "ordinary" folk, instead of the "meta-humans".

 

[Klaus]

And don't forget that while Bats is running around Gotham trying to get the city back together, Supes and the other heroes are busy with *their* own stuff.

Do you realise how long it takes for Wonder Woman to get that wild hair *just* right?

 

[Lord Pendragon]

But...but...heroes DO team up! I mean, that is what the Justice League of America is (and Batman is usually a member of that). And there is a comic that specifically teams up Superman and Batman right now (I forget its name). And there used to be a comic called Batman and the Outsiders, where Batman seemed to be dealing with a lot of superpowered folk as allies. Surely heroes are no less heroes when they team up.

Sure they're not. But then you have a superhero team, like the JLA. Not a hero who can't hack it getting bailed out by another hero.

And Batman, non-superpowered as he is, wouldn't always be on the receiving end of this phenomenon. One of his shticks is "World's Greatest Detective." He's the Sherlock Holmes of his era. How many times should Superman have called him in when he couldn't figure something out? Or Green Lantern? Or the Flash? The answer is invariably: a lot.

So why doesn't this happen? I've already mentioned one reason: a superhero needs to stand on his own. But another very compelling reason is that, from a reader's standpoint, it would get very boring very quickly. The drama of the solo hero comic comes from that hero's triumphs and challenges. A solo hero has great strengths, but they're usually coupled with weaknesses which allow the reader to relate to the hero, and provide a means through which the hero can be challenged and eventually triumph.

Knightfall was a great Batman storyarc in which he worked himself to exhaustion, then a villain took advantage of his weariness to cripple him. It was a story about the triumph of the human will over adversity, of a man putting the pieces of himself back together again. Where would the drama have been if he had simply called in Superman when things started to get tough?

How interesting would Superman comics be if he called in Wonder Woman whenever Lex Luthor got hold of a piece of Kryptonite?

In a real world with real-world pragmatism, yes, heroes would be calling in other heroes all the time when things started to get out of hand. But the bottom line is, in the comic book world, it wouldn't make for good reading.

Also, I am not suggesting Batman call in help everytime. But this time seems pretty major. Spoiler's death would make it high priority, if nothing else.

Look at the storyline and ask yourself if a Deus Ex Machina would have made it more interesting to read, or less so?

But I think that there are times when Batman should call for help, and that this was/is one of those times.

I disagree. The only times Batman should call in help is when the story's focus is on the team-up, rather than the individual. A team-up story, or a superteam story, finds its drama in the interaction of the various heroes, in the drama between them, rather than the more personal drama of the solo hero and his personal challenges. In such a case, sure, let Batman call in Superman and have them teamup together.

But if Batman calls in Superman every time he'd be "useful" or things got tough, we'd never see Batman triumph or fail on his own. And that's just plain uninteresting reading.

 

[Particle_Man]

Well I can sort of see the second point (interesting reading) if not the first (a hero should stand on his own?). But give Starman a read sometimes, there was one flashback story set in the 80's where the original Starman knows that Opal City is in trouble, and knows that he CAN'T handle it on his own, and calls in the Flash, Green Lantern, Hourman, & Dr. Midnight (original versions of each) to help stop the various crises in "his" city. The Shade is the biographer of this incident, and says that "What showed me that Ted Knight was a true hero is that he did not let his pride get in the way of asking for help to save Opal City". So that is where I am coming from when I say that the mark of a true hero is NOT standing alone, but rather in asking for help (and offering help) when it is needed, rather than letting innocent people die. But obviuosly we have differences of opinions here.

Actually, it might be interesting to see a comic where the "hero" loses every fight he is in, when solo, and learns to call on others for help, and in turn proves useful in "team" situations. Well, I'd buy it, if the art and writing were good.