A hellcat's pounce and improved grab

[Kershek]

It would seem to me that if a 5x10 foot "large" creature pounces on you and succeeds on a rake from its improved grab, that this much heavier creature would have bowled you over prone.

Would it seem proper to make the victim of a pounce fall prone? I can't see any other way that the hellcat would be able to get its back legs to do damage in a rake. It doesn't make sense to me why this isn't mentioned in the MM.

Also, according to the rules, improved grab says it pulls the opponent into its space. But with a pounce, it would seem the hellcat would already be in the opponent's space, no? The pounce ability doesn't mention moving into the opponent's space, but it makes no sense to leap onto an opponent and somehow bringing the opponent BACK 5 feet when momentum is going forward.

 

[LokiDR]

If the creature is grabbed, use the modifiers for a grappled opponent. The hellcat does pull the character grabbed 5' into the hellcat's square. It does not enter the characters square, as per a normal attack.

 

[Kershek]

If the creature is grabbed, use the modifiers for a grappled opponent. The hellcat does pull the character grabbed 5' into the hellcat's square. It does not enter the characters square, as per a normal attack.

But you're talking about a creature that is leaping onto an opponent. How does it make sense to pull it back 5'? And what do you think about the prone question?

 

[LokiDR]

Yes, you think of pounce as jumping on the character. But a creature with 5x10 face can't be on the character entirely. Does it make sense for the hellcat to back away from the character it couldn't grapple? Basically, it is simpler to use the normall "pull in" rules rather than think about entering an opponts square and all the AoOs that go with it.

As for prone, I meant the grappled modifers should take effect INSTEAD of the prone modifiers. You aren't just laying there, you are fighting with a cat from hell, probably for your life.

 

[Kershek]

What grapple modifiers? The one for large size?

 

[LokiDR]

No, the character is grappled. They can not cast spells with somatic components. They can only attack with light weapons. They can not leave the square. The hellcat can pin them with another grapple check. This is better for the hellcat than the character being prone.

 

[Kershek]

Does pinning the character give the hellcat a +4 to attack, then? I think that's the only advantage.

The bad part about the hellcat grappling is the fact that the rogue can then sneak attack with impunity. Not good for kitty.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Does pinning the character give the hellcat a +4 to attack, then? I think that's the only advantage.

Well, pinned is like "even more grappled". Instead of being able to escape with a single check, a character needs to win two in one round to get clear. Given that the Hellcat can rake every round it maintains the hold, and a pinned character can't cause it damage in return, it's usually to the Hellcat's advantage to do everything it can to keep the grapple going...

... unless, as you point out, it's somewhat outnumbered and being hacked up by its victim's allies...

-Hyp.

 

[Kershek]

Thanks for the responses. Let me get something straight. When grappling due to the improved grab, the hellcat can automatically do bite damage plus 2 rakes? Or would it just be automatic bite damage and rolls for the 2 rakes?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Or would it just be automatic bite damage and rolls for the 2 rakes?

Well, they make a point of telling you the attack bonus for the rakes against a held opponent...

-Hyp.