A Hope: Return Variability/Randomness

[Stormonu]

As the editions have been marching on, we've seen a slow move away from random determination towards fixed values - everything from point buy systems to fixed hit points (for players and monsters) to the generation of treasure parcels (with their fixed gp values).

While I've certainly been guilty of using many of these fixed values in my pressed-for-time games, and realize it makes it easier for designers to balance things on fixed values, I'd like to see more "variance" (not necessarily randomness) be brought back to the game - at least as semi-optional. For the most part, it would be a helpful tool to help the DM know how far in each direction he can safely tweak numbers, without disrupting the system too much.

While I'm sure that "roll 3d6" vs. point buy and random Pc hit points are two of the things that imstantly comes to mind, I'd like to point out other areas where having a range of values might be beneficial to the DM's toolbox.

- Monster hit dice. While having a stated "expected" hit point value for monster is good for the time pressed, having a hit point range lets the DM toughen or weaken opposition without having to scale other combat numbers. For ex, if the PCs tend to deal "more damage than normal", the DM can scale monster hit points upwards. In games where combat is de-phasized or the DM just wants to make a fight easier or quiker, hit points could be swung to the lower end. Also, minibosses or "tough guy" foes can be created by tweaking only HP.

- Magic Item cost. In a world where magic items are individially crafted objects and not created from boilerplate post-industrial templates, each item should have a fairly unique value (based on materials, craftmanship and the general eccentriccies of magic). Also, again where time-pressed DMs might just use the average value, a generous DM could use variable pricing to reward a PC with an on-the-cheap magic item, and a RBDM can jack prices up to the max.

- Treasure generation. Tying in with the above, variable hoard sizes and content allow the DM to customize treasure distribution in both value and content. Again, DMs could take the average, but the presence of a range and possibility of random generation allows for tweaking rewards within an acceptable range.

- Mundane items. This will likely be the most contraversial, as it hasn't been done before. D&D has always used a fixed price for the majority of equipment tables - and this really makes sense for initial character generation, but I'd like to see a variable range on prices for most items (at least anything worth a gp or more). It would make sense to use the average price when genrating PCs, again, having the variable prices built into the tables would give the DM a tool for those times when he may want to introduce some random (or semi-random) fluctuations to emulate some sort of economic fluctuation.

 

[HardcoreDandDGirl]

So wait, like longsword cost 1d8gp (4) and a silver long sword is 3d6x10gp (950)???

 

[CM]

Can't say I'm a fan of randomized ability scores or hit points. In the end somebody always gets the short end of the stick.

Variable monster HP? I'm cool with presenting an appropriate range and average values for those inclined to use them. HP: 40-55 (48) is about all the space it needs to take up. I would probably roll my eyes at anybody who insists on rolling out hit dice for every monster in an encounter though, instead of just picking 55, 52, 50, 42, 42, 40...etc.

As for variable prices on magic or equipment, I would prefer to base this on availability and modify the price based on a character's bartering-type skill check results, rather than determine it randomly.

If I remember correctly, 4e's treasure parcel system presented an "appropriate" value at each level and then gave you a 1d10 table to determine what form the treasure took, which was capable of being vastly higher or lower than the suggested value. That's pretty random.

 

[Lanefan]

As the editions have been marching on, we've seen a slow move away from random determination towards fixed values - everything from point buy systems to fixed hit points (for players and monsters) to the generation of treasure parcels (with their fixed gp values).

Problem is, to fix this one needs to go right down to the root design and loosen up the math. A lot.

Looser math and flatter progressions (e.g. 0-1-2e) can handle variability and randomness far better than systems where the math is more fine-tuned (3-4e).

The very term "treasure parcel" makes me shudder every time I see it, as it smacks me upside the head with a reminder that This Game Is Prepackaged.

Lanefan

 

[Stormonu]

So wait, like longsword cost 1d8gp (4) and a silver long sword is 3d6x10gp (950)???

Something like that, though your math for the silver sword is off (it'd be 30-180 gp, average 95 gp). The actual price range would be something I expect the designers would have to mull over, and you'd probably want to keep it in some % range of the average value, say no more than 50% in either direction. That might make a Longsword be worth 2d3 gp (4 gp) instead of 1d8.

While the easy thing would be to put an opening paragraph stating something like "prices may vary by up to 50%", building it into the actual price lists keeps it from being overlooked (which is pretty much whats occured over the many editions of D&D).

As for the 4E treasure parcels, if I remember right, while there were 10 parcels
per level, you were expected to give out one of each of the 10; You weren't, for example, supposed to give parcel #2 twice - though you could give them in any order. Thats a little different than what I'm proposing. In the parcel method you'd eventually get all 10 parcels. With pure variance, you might end higher, lower or right on the average.

I'm not advocating pure randomness, what I'm trying to put forth is a tool for DM to have built-in manuevering room to tweak numbers high or low, and have the support of the designers saying "if you stay within these bounds, it should work."

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

The problem is that the more randomness in a game, the WORSE it is for the PCs. It means that bad luck compounds making them worse and worse. It doesn't have the same effect on monsters for a number of reasons.

Probability means that rolls tend to end up towards the average over time. But in the short run, rolls can be anything.

So, if you come across a run of bad luck, you could have poor: stats, hitpoints, starting gold.

Depending on what these numbers affect, they can snowball: Stats not high enough to take the good classes? Now you have a poor class. Not enough gold to afford Full Plate? Now your defenses are lower. Maybe you don't qualify for the feats or theme you want.

Because your stats, hitpoints, class, feats, and equipment are all poor you now go into the beginning of the game with a disadvantage on every roll you make. If you need to make an attack roll, your bonus to the attack is lower than everyone else, so you miss more often than everyone else in every combat for the rest of the game. You get hit more often. You can take less damage before you die.

Probability means that it's likely that overall the group with have average stats, which means someone in your group likely rolled higher than average on their stats. This means the opposite effect happened to them. They hit more often, they were able to take the best feats adding more to their already lucky roll. They have better equipment too.

When you put both of these characters into the same group the difference becomes even more apparent.

The more benefit you get from high stats, the more of a disadvantage it is to roll. If they made it so the best benefit you could have from any stat was +2....or if they at least decoupled stats from direct combat benefits(no bonuses to hit or damage or defenses from stats) then I'd be up for rolling. If the worst thing that happened because I rolled a 14 for strength on my fighter was that I couldn't jump as far or carry quite as much, I'd be in favor of rolling.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Heh, the mundane part is the one I think would work the best. It takes up very little space (and given the usual formatting, it's mostly otherwise blank space it would be filling in), and it serves a useful purpose that a simple factor woudn't. Namely, it lets the writer convey different information about range and average (or should we say "median"?) price.

If the range is merely some derived range from the average value (or rounded to it for the dice involved), then it doesn't do much. People will ignore it quickly. But it might very well be that certain equipment naturally has a wider range than other equipment. For example, you can get a standard rope for 10 gp, yet the range is 2 gp to 20 gp (2d10). You can readily find a shoddy rope and some high quality stuff. Whereas, a longsword might only have a 1d6 range of variance, with a roll of "2" corresponding to the stated standard. Swords only go so cheap.

I'm not sure that would work, but to the extent that it adds color and good information at such a low cost, it might be worth doing.

 

[concjo]

If you want variance in prices, just do it per city or even merchant if you like. Using your own equation, roll a d10. Roll 1-5 is +10/20/30/40/50 and 6-10 is -10-50%

i personally like to move the prices up and down based off of what i think would be useful/less and if the NPC i have running the shop is nice or shady. for instance, I reward the PCs by having gather info/knowledge local to find reputable merchant. if they don't, they have better chance of finding a shady one. Prices negotiated will then vary on their diplomacy/bartering skills.

 

[fjw70]

I don’t like much randomness in character creation or leveling. Those are things that stay with you a long time. I expect both to be the standard in the core of 5e. No problem. These things are easy enough to house rule.

For mundane items I wouldn’t mind the random rolls as a PC, but would hate it as a DM. It would just another fiddly bit to look up. I like the concept of varying the price of mundane item but I would (and do) just make it up or roll a die on the spot. I don’t expect to see this in the core game but could be in a module somewhere.

I wouldn’t mind random magic item values, and wouldn’t be surprised if this was in the core game (or a module in the core book).

 

[Stormonu]

Prices negotiated will then vary on their diplomacy/bartering skills.

Is thre a reason you couldn't do both?

Perhaps, for example, th fighter is shopping for Plate Mail. Say the standard variance for plate is 2d4x100 gp (450gp), and since there's time to kill in the game, the DM decides to roll instead of go with the average. The dice comes up indicating this particular suit is going for 600 gp.

So, the fighter starts bargaining. In return for a few favors, and because the fighter and the armorsmith hit it off so well, the fighter negotiates the price down to 350 gp.

Later in another town, the fighter finds another suit (used and badly worn by the DMs description) for 200 gp. The fighter decides to buy it, thinking perhaps he can sell it somewhere else (after spiffing it back up) for a modest profit.