A Hope: Return Variability/Randomness

[FireLance]

I'd like to know why we shouldn't make attack rolls nonrandom. The fact that it's only ability scores and hit points discussed as being nonrandom indicates that it's a novelty thing.

I would say it's the difference between a randomized process and a randomized start state. To be exact, a randomized persistent start state.

To use a Monopoly example, some people don't mind rolling dice to move, but would prefer everyone to start with the same amount of money and not for each player to roll 5d6 x $100 to determine starting funds. Others might not mind rolling for money at the start of each game, but might not like the idea that whatever money get at the start of your first game will be what you get at the start of every subsequent game thereafter.

It's not an exact parallel, because Monopoly is competitive instead of co-operative, but I think the basic premise is the same. Random ability scores and hit points would be more palatable to more people if characters were created fresh for every adventure or if players had a selection of characters to choose from. However, as gaming styles shifted towards each player running a single character for an extended period of time, I guess there was a simultaneous increase in the preference for less random methods of character creation.

 

[pemerton]

Random monster and by extension player HD is sort of a mixed bag, on large groups of similar enemies, such as kobolds, gnolls, ect... it's fine, it adds a useful sense of variety.

I tend to find that the cumulative effect of random to hit rolls and damage rolls is enough to add variety.

 

[Fifth Element]

<edit> Rereading your statement, it's not an entirely bad idea to have a module that would allow random character generation (it might be really nice for NPCs), but I was more interested in acceptable "spreads" for values than randomization for acquisition.

Absolutely - it can certainly work in certain situations. But it shouldn't be the default.

I'd like to know why we shouldn't make attack rolls nonrandom. The fact that it's only ability scores and hit points discussed as being nonrandom indicates that it's a novelty thing.

It's not only ability scores and hit points, of course. A big part of the argument against these being random is, as mentioned already, that every other part of character creation and advancement is non-random.

 

[Skyscraper]

One problem I see with 4E (sorry to come back to this one - I still play it and like it, but it's kind of an extreme in some respects so it makes for a good example), is how predictable the system is. In a game I'm DMing presently, all PCs at level 5 are within a 10% variation in HPs at most. The 4E combat mechanic is very elaborate and very nice in theory but the problem is that it comes down to the same thing all the time. PCs all have a same strong attribute, monster defenses are set at a same value (notwithinstanding whether the opponent is in plate mail or completely nude!) and consequently PCs and monsters have essentially excactly the same percentage of success on any given attack roll, in every combat, give or take a few rare variations. Also, 4E is obviously a game that is intended to be very battle-oriented, although you can of course customize it to your liking (I play with a couple of groups, and at least one is high-RP, low combat style - but even with that group we end up fighting a lot if only because battles last long).

So, in this context, bringing in randomness is not a good idea because suddenly you risk that some PCs will simply not be as interesting than others because the game is all about being able to hit a set defense value that is always the same and that, as you level up, is always relatively the same with respect to your attack bonuses. So I fully agree that randomness in 4E is not desirable. We use point buy.

However, if the game allows for some leeway in battles and other interactions, all of a sudden having +2 BAB instead of +4 is not that important. You won't necessarily be 10% less effective. Back in the days of 1E, a flesh golem, obviously a monster you did not encounter at level 1, had AC 9 (essentially the same as a level 10 monster having AC 10 in 4E: almost auto-hit). Then, you had spells that didn't key off an opponent's defense: some didn't even allow for a saving throw. A low level magic user with 14 intelligence was pretty much as effective as a low level magic user with 18 intelligence.

I'm not advocating a return to 1E. I'm saying that the entire system influences whether you want to roll random ability scores, hit points, and generally use random values elsewhere in the game. If the game structure is very rigid like 4E, random ability score and HP determination can reduce fun for the unlucky players IMO. However, if the game structure is flexible (no uniformity in attack bonuses, defenses, no reliance on a single mechanic for all battle resolutions, allowance of actions that go beyond roll d20 and deal damage, etc...) then randomness is really a cool addition to the game.

Also, I read people saying that they feel that a 18, 16, 12, 11, 10, 8 array includes strengths and weaknesses. This statement, in a vaccuum, makes no sense. Strength and weakness, by definition, is a relative question. If everyone has 18 STR, you are weak with a 16 STR. In 4E, your attack bonus is determined by your main stat. Therefore, by having 18 in your main stat, you are neither weak nor strong, you are just like everybody else because all PCs and all NPCs and monsters have an 18 in their main stat. The comparion to the 3-18 theoretical value is moot.

And, if you were to compare the above array to the 3-18 theoretical value, then I contend that it includes no real weakness. Having one 8 in one stat is not weak. 10.5 is the average. I've seen people play PCs (and I've played PCS) with a value between 4 and 6 in one stat, that was clearly more evocative to me if I compare with values between 3-18, than having an 8. And 8 is a touch of weakness, a timid symbolic attempt to have a value below average simply to be able to state that you're not good all around. 8 is as much a weakness as 12 is a strength.

 

[DimitriX]

Well if you like randomization, then...*ahem*...look over here.

 

[underfoot007ct]

No support for random HP or ability scores? I'm surprised. I really wish for those to return, with point buy being an option only.

The disappearance of randomness resulted in PCs of a given class being all the same, except where sub-choices in that class exist, in which case all sub-choices are the same. In 4E you end up with the "big decision" of having 18 or 20 as your highest ability score - I hope no one is too stressed out about that kind of difficult decision making All PCs and monsters have at least 18 in their main score, there is absolutely nothing special about that value anymore. If everyone has it, and all defenses are geared accordingly, this means that this high value in fact means nothing mechanically speaking. It brings only illusion of being good.

What you want to avoid, IMO, is a very swingy chararacter creation where you can have, say, between 1-20 starting hit points because obviously the game plays out totally differently for the PC with 1 HP than for the one with 20 HPs. One solution is to give a base value and then a random value to top it off, for example 10 + 1-10 hit points. You can play with variability on a very few key stats like HPs.

As for ability scores, there are many ways to control the outcome to avoid disastrous 4 STR fighthers or 4 INT wizards: 4d6 drop lowest, roll 3 arrays and keep the one you want, swap two ability score values, ...

My point is: you need a system that avoids disaster values (such as 1 starting HP or below-average main ability score) but apart from that, random is cool. It's cool because it drives my imagination at character creation to explain why my character has 5 in Wisdom. It's cool because having high numbers is impressive, not the norm. It's cool because all of a sudden you have intelligent fighers and strong wizards (more rare than the other way around, but still existent. I haven't seen a single one of either of those in 4 years of playing 4E). It's cool because of the role-play that comes from weird values such as very low scores or a couple of high ones. It's cool because of skills that derive from those ability scores and suddenly you have stealthy clerics or learned fighters. It's cool because the lower-hit-point character needs to find ways to stay alive. It's cool because the game designers won't make a game that is so pre-set mechanically that everyone has just about the same number of hit points and does about the same damage and so on, that no one stands out; and challenges should be flexible as a consequence.

I hear people saying that they get screwed with low scores. Disaster values apart (see above), I say we get screwed with uniformity, by that I mean the entire game experience suffers. And, really, is there a better feeling than rolling a 10 on that d10 hit point die? Sure you'll also have the 1 to cry about, but I'll take the occasional coolness and the occasional badness, over constant indifference, anytime. I'm looking for a roller coaster of emotions, not a boring straight predictable line.

Let's roll baby!!

I there anything more disastrous than a level fighter 1 rolling a 1 on his D10 HP die. Gee wizz, how much fun if you roll say a 2 on your level 2 HP die, so you couls have a useless or severely gimped level 2 Fighter with 3 plus con mod X2, so maybe 9 HP.

Yet if you seek randomness this is what you want & get. Yet when you start creating "safty net" rules, (like above), re-roll 1's, 3 arrays not 1, swap 2 stats are not really random. If you need safty-nets, then rules don't really work.

Great I rolled a 10, but if I roll a 1 there is some rule not to let my char be useless. Many of us out grew this many years ago. Even 4e had rules for both rolling stats, arrays & point-buys. So If you must, roll everything. If not having a useless/gimped char is fun than I choose being screwed the standardized HPs etc.

 

[howandwhy99]

While I'm sure that "roll 3d6" vs. point buy and random Pc hit points are two of the things that imstantly comes to mind,

Nice thread idea. I use random ability score generation to represent average ability distributions that will carry over into the game. It's a human base. Using the flat 0 averages and set 10-11 abilities on some of the abilities derived from the scores I can deal with large groups of humans quite easily. Everything else just shifts off of that more or less.

- Monster hit dice.

Here's another way to define the monster, Hit Die. It's basically defining combat toughness. The die rolls bring in variability, which means more interesting combats. Some Ogres have lower hps, some have more than average. XP amounts even took account of tougher foes due to hit point totals. And large groups sometimes divide themselves (like scouting parties) by hp amounts. So their heavy foot could be top end guys and runners could be low end. I like to put mix the whole variety in scouting parties and pre-roll everyone in a rolled (say 50d6 appearing) encounter. Generating the whole camp of, say, orcs becomes part of generating more than just one encounter then.

- Magic Item cost.

I prefer trade systems with a flat out numeric rating that tells me how powerful this stuff is. If my world is more magical and magic items have more influence, then they're lower cost due to ease of construction or whatever other factors. PC might trade for this stuff, so it has a local market cost for the NPC selling it. Then the bartering system takes care of the rest. That's the most fun IMO. It could even end up as "I'll fight you for it", which basically means you loot the guy after.

- Treasure generation.

Yeah, I don't like the generation tables in the DMG or, especially, in the Monster Manual. There is simply more to it than what they include and the MM's balancing is kooky IMO. I do like random generation for the sheer uniqueness of results and then drawing backgrounds up for how the stuff came to be there.

- Mundane items.

Goods and services are covered already in the books, so creation of mundane items is simply generating a dynamic society where all of this is accounted for. Based upon resources, like creature training and crafting supplies, we get costs and availability for a region and surrounding regions too. Backgrounds for every culture that came before can be tossed in too for found artifacts (the mundane kind) and a people's sort of starting treasure. I totally agree the prices here should be variable, but I use the barter system again and prices go up and down according to many factors, not just good or bad deals.