A idea for a change to YB. More info/new idea at end of thread

[Vanor]

I've considered that. And none of the idea's I came up with were wonderful, they might work... but they might not.

Your idea would work, and may even work easier then changing the rules so the default is loss don't count. I personaly like this idea either way, because then it lets people play the way they want to. I honestly don't think people would race up the ranks all that much faster if losses didn't count, but the avg level would move up over time.

As far as limiting power players, we could put a fights per day limit on a character, like say 4 fights per day. If someone wanted to fight more then what they were alowed, they could just start a 2nd character.

A different option I thought of was actualy spliting YB into to different "leagues", a serrious one where losses count, and a fun one where they don't. But this would make IC stuff rather tricky, between the leagues. And could actualy do some harm to both by spliting up the player base.

 

[Zappo]

Using stipulations that the match will cause rank loss wouldn't work. First of all, finding an opponent willing to fight will become harder. Then, it will split the game just as much as creating two leagues would, and that's a Bad Thing (TM).

From another POV, consider what happens when you play in a D&D campaign that you consider seriously overpowered. You can go with the flow and lose fun, or be the only character with a +2 sword at 5th while all the others have +3 keen vorpals. The first option is bad. The second is worse. It's not the most perfect analogy, but I think you get the idea - two power scales in the same game never work.

I think I've said everything I could for now... unless some other interesting views come in, I'll wait for the poll. Oh, about the leagues - splitting an already small player base doesn't sound good.
That said, if really a sizeable number of people feel that they want to leave unless losing is removed, it's not like we can (or want to) stop them from having no-loss fights and keeping their own records. In other words, I wouldn't encourage he formation of two leagues, but I can't do anything to prevent it if it happens naturally.

 

[Kalanyr]

I have a problem with Tier 7 forced retirement. It hurts Paths who have to work up powers, Lights & Darks will take about 40 million fights to ever fill their power slots, Sash to a lesser degree who need to build yen requiring only about 100 fights. It favours Yakuza and Honour quiet heavily who go into Tier 7 with all their powers at their disposal.

 

[Jin Chi]

Dropping ranks sucks.

Dropping tiers sucks worse.

But mostly because the game is so damn random. Once (if) we make some adjustments to the generator, and the defenses start to feel more tied into the attacks, that might help somewhat, but right now skill only plays a small part.

Perhaps we need to think of other ways to keep growth from getting out of control.

One idea is to only allow a character to move up to the next tier after a victory over someone already in that tier. I'm not sure how you handle this when there isn't someone on that tier. Perhaps they have to fight a peer.

I also think it is terribly unfair that Sashes are pretty much immune to losses. Yen are easy for them to come by. Everyone else gets screwed. I think they should be only allowed to spend to keep from going down a tier.

 

[reiella]

Hmm, would kinda be against that change to sashes in genreal for one reason.

The main reason I pick on gray/sashes for fights is that I get yen from them. If the only real incentive I have for fighting a sash who isn't at a 0-rank is the victory, they'd also probably be more willing to make use of Bribe Judges.

 

[Lady Diamond]

Ok I'll set it up that way when I post the poll... But I wasn't planing on doing that til like sunday or monday.

edit: Hmm something I thought about, with the poll set up this way, perhaps it might be wise to weight the two "will quit" votes slightly higher then the "won't quit" ones, thoughts?

I don't see a point in weighing one or two categories higher than the other. When the reset was scheduled, my One vote for "after Monday" wasn't weighed any higher than the others.

And I was the one responsible for changing things around in the generator and rules to make the bloomin' reset workable.. Nobody asked Me, they just posted a poll. Just post the poll and have people vote. That's my thoughts.

 

[Vanor]

Well heh, in that case, no matter what the vote said, the reset wouldn't happen until you were ready for it.

The reason I was thinking of weighting those votes a bit more then the won't quit, is becuase it would give an idea on just how imporant this all is to people.

Lets say 1 person voted "strongly favor keeping rank loss (and will quit if we don't keep it)" 5 other people voted "favor keeping rank loss (but won't quit if we don't keep it)"

But 4 people voted "favor eliminating rank loss (but won't quit if we don't )" and 4 people voted "Favor eliminating rank loss (And would quit if we don't)" Then I'd say that even tho the vote was like 8 to 6, the fact that 4 people feel so strongly about it vs 1 person on the other side... Then that should be taken into account.

But this may all be a moot point I was talking to Sollir about a different system that might well please everyone, I'll lay that out later today and then set up a vote on sunday.

 

[Vanor]

Ok...

I can see quite a few people feel strongly about this whole issue. So here's a compromise that Sollir sugested, and I helped work out.

The end result is that losses no longer have quite so much sting to them, but still could knock someone down in ranks/tiers. It's a bit like what Zappo sugested.

The idea is we'd swich to a EXP system. It would require a little extra book keeping, but nothing major.

Each rank would be cost X amount of EXP's in order to reach. To keep the math simple, it would be 10 exp per rank. So Tier 2, rank 0 would cost 10 exp's. Tier 3 rank 2 would cost 60 exps. Tier 5 rank 6 would cost 220 exps. I can do a chart for this if someone wants to see it... but basicly just count up the number of ranks and mulitpliy it by 10.

A win would give you 10 exps. So the rules stay the same basicly as before, A win would put you up one rank. A loss on the other hand would cost you 5 exps.

So you'd need to lose 2 fights in a row, to be knocked down 1 rank, well not exactly but it's close. I'll use me as an example.

I would have 70 exp's current based on my record (10-7 (1 loss was at white belt so that wouldn't count) which would give me 100-30=70 exp)) That would put me at Green Belt 3. If I lost my next fight, I'd go down to Green Belt 2, with 65 exp, a 2nd loss would leave me at Green 2, with 60 exp's.

On top of this, would be a slight change to how fights between different tiered fighters would work.

You'd get +5 exp for each tier above you, the fighter you beat was. So a yellow belt vs a brown would mean a 20 point win for the yellow belt.

However if a fighter is 2 more tiers under you, you get 5 less exp then normal for a win.

For extra tier fights already in the rules, like light vs dark or yak vs yak... They would add another 5 to what ever is there anyway. So a yak vs a higher tiered yak would get 20, a light vs a dark would get 15, or 20 if the loser was higher tiered then the winner.

Sash's would still be able to buy off a loss like they can now.

Disgraced ranks at the bottom of a tier would work the same way they do now as well. If someone lost enough to go though all buffer ranks, and then lose a tier, they'd lose 10 exp.

So a Green 0 with 40 exp's, who loses a fight, would be a Green d1 with 40 exp's, Green d2 with 40 exp, Green d3 with 40 exp, ect... if they made it to D4, and then lost again, they'd go to yellow 2 with 30 exp's. A win at the disgrace ranks would simply wipe away the disgrace ranks as normal for the tier in question.

Sollir mentioned something for death matches. A death match would grant +20 exp's on top of what ever else you'd win. If the person who died was 2 tiers or lower then you, you'd only get +10 exps on top of what ever else you'd win. (The -5 wouldn't count for these matches)

Well anyway this is the idea... I will post a poll shortly, with this option in it. The poll would be something like

-Favor losses not counting for anything
-Favor losses not counting for anything, but would accept the exp system
-Don't care
-Favor losses counting, but would accept the exp system
-Favor losses counting

 

[Berandor]

Man, after reading through all this, here's my take.

Losses and loss of rank are part of the game, must be part of the game. When I fight and now my next fight will put me down a tier, it is just a different feeling. Suspense, thrill, fun.
If I wouldn't lose ranks, I would just stoically hit the "generate move" button the whole day, not caring why or how.

This is like that stupid RPG hoax where you just click on a button, random sounds are displayed, and you level up all the time.

Click, click, click - Green belt 0. Click, click, click, click, Green Belt 1...

As it stands now, I already think the tiers have too many powers, and I am always confused and unsure as to what exactly I would be facing. That would even grow stronger without losses. Furthermore, as higher tiers are statisitically in an advantage to win against a lower tier, it would probably end up in two leagues; one with lower tier fighters wanting to get up, and one with high tiers. I'd gues the Tier 3/4 would be less populated.

The problem, imo, isn't the tier system. It's the way people think of their characters. As YB is a game of pure chance, it is not very likely that your character will become a power to reckon for a long time.
However, people get very closely tied to their character, and when you are tied to her, you want some control of her fate. You don't want to rely on luck. That's fine, but it isn't suited for YB at all.
The same goes with plans you make for your character. If you have grand plans that have to be implemented, it most assuredly won't work. YB simply isn't meant for this complexity. To a great part, you must follow the flow of chance, and change your expectations to meet the situation.

Vanor doesn't want to fight anymore so he won't lose the dojo. Why? It's not like this dojo has any in-game bearing if he doesn't fight. His reasons are purely IC.However, why not go through a different route? Why not change the IC reasons? Vanor could go out fighting to further his dojo's prominence.
It's as if you'd get a +2 sword in D&D, and then stay at home so as not to lose it.
What do you think is your student's opinion towards a master that stopped fighting before his actual peak of ability, simply out of fear?
Towards a master they are bound to surpass once, a grave insult in the asian-flavored world most people play YB in.

We all saw what happens with too detailed character plans with Ycekhold... I can't count how often he wrote some OOC stuff into fights (his own and others) because some description, event or fight result didn't correspond with his plans.

Another problem of too emotionally tied characters is the fight scene. Nobody fights a higher tier. It really seems as if no-one was able to face loss. What's the harm in trying it out? IC, you try your skills at a master's hand. OOC, you could gain a lot of ranks.
I beat Gray, and immediately jumped from WB to Dark Warrior. Then I beat Kalanyr (1 rank higher) and became Dark Knight. It's possible - though perhaps unlikely.

But YB is a game of fun, and when I lost to meowth with two of her sig styles generated for my move, it was as much fun as winning the other fights.

I just think people need to accept that YB needs a certain amount of risk involved. Everytime you fight, you risk your character development. You risk your power. This risk is always there because Lady Luck is a fickle lass, indeed.
But all you need to be is willing to put yourself at her mercy (more or less, as you have some powers to influence her doing).

Risk it.

Berandor

 

[Dalamar]

I think that if we're going to use EXP, then shouldn't we all just go play YBA? Just fight people in tournament matches and that's it. And there you have much more control over your character's advancement. That simple.