A Kensai's Signature Weapon

[eamon]

A Kensai can place an enhancement bonus up to his class level into his signature weapon (he pays an XP cost to do so). This ability interacts with weapons which are already magical - for instance, a Kensai imbueing a +1 longsword to become +3 longsword pays the XP cost difference for imbuing a +3 and a +1 bonus. The Kensai PrC is in the Complete Warrior.

The question thus is:
Can a Kensai imbue a weapon up to an enhancement bonus equal up to his class level, or can he add his class level to the preexisting enhancement bonus?

For instance, can a 3rd level Kensai imbue a +2 weapon to become a +5 weapon, or can he merely imbue it to become a +3 weapon?

The FAQ believes the Kensai's level limits the total enhancement bonus. Finally, a Kensai might choose to imbue not an enhancement bonus, but a weapon ability equivalent to an enhancement bonus. To do so, the Kensai simply uses the enhancement bonus price modifiers as if they were true enhancement bonuses. Weapon special abilities don't affect the core question though.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

You know where I stand on that

You might consider putting a poll on this thread for the 2 choices, as well as a link to the FAQ in question.

 

[Zelc]

First, there's the the argument from the FAQ:

If a kensai (Complete Warrior 49) selects a weapon as his signature weapon, and that weapon already has an enhancement bonus, do the bonuses stack? What if it already has other magical properties?

A weapon’s existing enhancement bonus doesn’t stack with the effect of the kensai’s signature weapon class feature. The weapon bonus appearing on the “Signature Weapons” table on page 50 of Complete Warrior indicates the maximum effective enhancement bonus of the signature weapon. A 5th-level kensai who chooses a +3 keen longsword as his signature weapon could increase the weapon to a +4 keen longsword, but no higher (since his maximum weapon bonus at that level is +5). He’d pay the difference in XP cost between a +4 weapon (the weapon’s existing effective enhancement bonus) and a +5 weapon (the end result), which is 360 XP.

But some people don't trust the FAQ, so let's go to the Argument From Text. Dannyalcatraz thinks the Kensai's bonuses to the weapon are independent from and stack with the weapon's magical bonuses. Thus, a 3rd level Kensai can add +3 effective enhancement bonuses to a +3 weapon. I argued that this interpretation allows you to get a +24 weapon after Greater Magic Weapon at level 20. He replied:

The limit would remain at +10 overall, no matter the level of the kensai.

In your analogy, you're assuming that a 3rd level kensai can only fill a jug up to 3 gallons. The way I'm interpreting the language, a kensai can fill a milk jug (enhance his signature weapon) up to his level, so long as he does not exceed the game limit- but the limit here is 10 gallons. As long as the weapon he holds in his hand as his signature weapon isn't already enhanced to more than "7 gallons," the 3rd level kensai can freely add up to his level.

Unfortunately, there is no "game limit" of +10. For example, I can have a Longbow +1 of Splitting Speed Force Flaming, which has a total enhancement bonus of +10. I can then add Greater Magic Weapon to make the total enhancement bonus +14. Indeed, in the Epic Level Handbook, there are rules for weapons with enhancement bonuses of greater than +10. The only limit on using them is gold, not levels.


Also, to support his interpretation of the Signature Weapon ability, Dannyalcatraz quoted this line:

The signature weapon then becomes a magic weapon (if it wasn't already) and gains an enhancement bonus and/or special abilities. His current class level limits the amount of enhancement a kensai can place into his signature weapon (CompWar p51, emphasis mine)

He interpreted it like this:

Not the total enhancement the weapon can actually have. Otherwise, a 1st level Kensai couldn't enhance a +1 weapon, which the language of the first sentence above contemplates him doing. The only example in the entire section that discusses a Kensai enhancing a magic weapon uses a Kensai of indeterminate level.

Unfortunately, such an interpretation not only allows for +24 weapons, it also allows for +infinity weapons as per RAW. With this interpretation, there is absolutely nothing limiting how many enhancement effects the Kensai can add to the weapon. So a level 1 Kensai can just place a +1 enhancement in his weapon over and over again, because he can place a +1 enhancement bonus in his weapon and the total enhancement bonus of the item is ignored. By RAW, there is no limit on this if we use Dannyalcatraz's interpretation of the rules.

 

[Hyperfist]

Just referring to the CW manual. The highest enhancement bonus you can get is +5 anyways. As for special properties that is a different story. The max you can have is up to +10 total anyways. Otherwise it becomes epic.

Taking a magic item and trying to boost it to become an epic weapon using the signature weapon ability, can be house ruled to be possible. However...either way...think of the xp cost. I don't see any problem with a 3rd level Kensai boosting a +3 sword to a +5 enhancement bonus. But that is the max he is going to get. Now it is a matter of the special properties that he chooses to impart.

But IMHO +10 overall is the basic amount allowed. Otherwise, you are trying to make it epic and should either be disallowed or pay the appropriate XP. Which should be exorbitant.

 

[Zelc]

Taking a magic item and trying to boost it to become an epic weapon using the signature weapon ability, can be house ruled to be possible. However...either way...think of the xp cost. I don't see any problem with a 3rd level Kensai boosting a +3 sword to a +5 enhancement bonus. But that is the max he is going to get. Now it is a matter of the special properties that he chooses to impart.

But IMHO +10 overall is the basic amount allowed. Otherwise, you are trying to make it epic and should either be disallowed or pay the appropriate XP. Which should be exorbitant.

See, there are no rules disallowing the weapon from becoming epic if you use Dannyalcatraz's interpretation, where you can add another +10 enhancement bonus (I don't just mean the +X part, I'm also using this to include the special ability with an enhancement cost) from the Kensai Signature Weapon ability. You pay for a +10 weapon at normal cost, then you add in the +10 from the Kensai ability using the normal XP costs. There's nothing about paying any exorbitant XP or being disallowed if you use his interpretation.

On the other hand, using the FAQ interpretation means the max total enhancement bonus of the weapon is +10.

 

[Hyperfist]

See, there are no rules disallowing the weapon from becoming epic if you use Dannyalcatraz's interpretation, where you can add another +10 enhancement bonus (I don't just mean the +X part, I'm also using this to include the special ability with an enhancement cost) from the Kensai Signature Weapon ability. You pay for a +10 weapon at normal cost, then you add in the +10 from the Kensai ability using the normal XP costs. There's nothing about paying any exorbitant XP or being disallowed if you use his interpretation.

On the other hand, using the FAQ interpretation means the max total enhancement bonus of the weapon is +10.

I was just going off the basic idea of anything higher than +10 is an epic weapon. And should use an Epic Weapon progression. Kind of like spirit versus letter of the law type of thing.

 

[eamon]

I was just going off the basic idea of anything higher than +10 is an epic weapon. And should use an Epic Weapon progression. Kind of like spirit versus letter of the law type of thing.

OK, but setting aside weapons that have higher than +10 enhancement bonus price equivalent just to be clear (I'm trying to get an idea of what the consensus here is before we muddle it up with epic weapons):

You think that the spirit of the Kensai's signature weapon ability is to allow it to continue to add as bonuses even if the weapon already has a bonus equal to the Kensai's class level?

 

[FEADIN]

OK, but setting aside weapons that have higher than +10 enhancement bonus price equivalent just to be clear (I'm trying to get an idea of what the consensus here is before we muddle it up with epic weapons):

You think that the spirit of the Kensai's signature weapon ability is to allow it to continue to add as bonuses even if the weapon already has a bonus equal to the Kensai's class level?

I think that the spirit of the rule is "balance"....the total limit should be the Kensai class level but the wording is poor.

 

[Hyperfist]

OK, but setting aside weapons that have higher than +10 enhancement bonus price equivalent just to be clear (I'm trying to get an idea of what the consensus here is before we muddle it up with epic weapons):

You think that the spirit of the Kensai's signature weapon ability is to allow it to continue to add as bonuses even if the weapon already has a bonus equal to the Kensai's class level?

If he gets a magic weapon early, why can't he upgrade it. That is the entire purpose of the ability. Just that if he continues to upgrade it. It peaks sooner. That is all.

It balances out in the end. +10 is the most it will go. Even if he has 3 more additional +'s to add on.

That is my take on it.

 

[Zelc]

If he gets a magic weapon early, why can't he upgrade it. That is the entire purpose of the ability. Just that if he continues to upgrade it. It peaks sooner. That is all.

It balances out in the end. +10 is the most it will go. Even if he has 3 more additional +'s to add on.

That is my take on it.

There are two considerations here: rules and balance.

Ruleswise, there isn't much to support this interpretation. If you don't interpret the cap on the Kensai Signature Weapon ability to take the base weapon enhancement bonus into account, then there is no cap on the weapon's enhancement bonus. There's no line in the rules that says "if this increase would make the Signature Weapon's total enhancement bonus go above +10, then the ability costs 5000xp extra". Not to mention you can have the equivalent of a +14 weapon before epic (+10 weapon with only a +1 enhancement bonus to attack/damage, with Greater Magic Weapon). The difference here is it allows you to have a +24 weapon.

Balancewise, that extra bonus is more important than you think. Suppose the players are at a level where they can't realistically afford more than a +5 weapon, and one player has enough levels of Kensai for a +10 weapon. That means the Kensai has the equivalent of +4d6+1d4 damage for the 5 elemental damage modifiers (MIC introduced some others). Considering this may only be with 5 levels of Kensai, that's much better and less situational than a Rogue's Sneak Attack progression.