D&D 5E A Mess of OP Characters (magic items, rest mechanics, etc.)
gorice
Hero
OMG, allow me to second @FrozenNorth 's suggestion of Star Spawn Manglers. Those things are machines. And they work together nicely with the other Star Spawn types.
Cap'n Kobold
Hero
You maybe have an opportunity to test drive the gritty rest variant. Your party are approaching a Necropolis: a place of death and horror.
You could introduce an environmental effect that the Necropolis is creating that extends for miles into the surrounding lands that causes fitful sleep, making it harder to regain Long rest abilities.
You could also have this effect dampen Ra's influence (resistance to radiant and fire damage to creatures) and bolster undead within.
In terms of encounter design, as per the DM I believe, comparatively low-CR creatures just aren't factored into the calculation of an encounter. I would just ignore anything with less than 20 hit points or so. Or upgrade bandits to swashbucklers etc.
I wouldn't recommend using higher-CR creatures to compensate for this party's unusual aspects. The action economy will still work against them, there is a greater risk of one-shotting party members, and a single deadly++ fight still emphasises the power of the spellcasters and other nova classes. Work more with additional creatures. A linked group that will arrive at the scene of a fight a couple of minutes after the alarm goes out is still another encounter even as it appears to be just part of the same bandit/cultist camp.
Quickleaf
Legend
You're right, I forgot one of the artifacts was down there. I was remembering that the PCs could end up down here as sacrifices if the false priests fooled them.
Two things about the Osirium.
First, the Osirium – even with the couple fights that Frog Gods' conversion removed – will probably be more combat-heavy than your usual 1-2 fights per day. It's also implied (at least in the original) that these combats happen with little to no rest in between... A core element to the Osirium is all the fights and damaging traps are wearing the PCs down. Originally, the time pressure is associated with (a) the river is flowing in one direction, and (b) the threat of the evil false priests. If your PCs have magic allowing them to break that pacing (which is likely) and/or have dealt with the false priests already, you may want to introduce a reason why they can't rest very much between combats (or at least why they can't long rest between combats). For example – as a ritual reenactment of Ra's solar barge through the underworld journey, the challenges must be faced within one night or else the ritual participants find themselves magically whisked back to the beginning with all monsters restored (this could be narratively explained as a 'regional effect' of the "evil being defiling the sacred waters", if you like).
Second, these combats take place primarily on a boat while floating on a dark underground river, against swimming (or flying) foes)... that puts the PCs at somewhat of an environmental disadvantage, not just potential of being dragged underwater (worthwhile to come to agreement as a group about your ruling on "is a PC 'holding their breath' when hit and grappled overboard by a monster or do they immediately begin 'suffocating'") or monsters attacking the boat, but also that they will probably be more clustered (i.e. on the boat) vs. area effect attacks. I don't think the original or Frog God version mentions this, but playing up that environment could help make for more challenging combats.
EDIT: Ok, third, if the evil high priest is still around, that's a huge complicating factor when his betrayal manifests in the middle of one of these combat.
Some specific thoughts on the combats...
U4. 4 hippodilemons* --> if this combat happens, the hippodilemons' strategy is to reach bite/grapple and drag PCs off of the boat, underwater, in different directions (that's what the four adjoining caverns are there for)
U6G. puzzle / demons of iubeni*, up to 5 --> I suspect for your group the puzzle (and that 28 necrotic damage) will be more challenging than having to face a demon one-on-one, but if they're depleted or a PC gets unlucky, this could wear them down for upcoming combats in the Osirium
U9. serpent of the Duat* --> I'd probably have the serpent have previously cast its symbol somewhere on the "island", and open with wall of fire around either the PCs' boat or the "island", so that they remain clustered for its Fire Breath and when it does start grappling it can pull them through the wall of fire
U13. 4 ophidiles* --> Frog God set this up as an ambush encounter with astronomically high Perception required to prevent being surprised, the ophidiles (between constricting/grappling & paralyzing spittle) can definitely mess a party up, but it heavily depends on them gaining surprise, so if your party has a weapon of warning or other ways to nix surprise, it's probably a lot less dangerous
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aco175
Legend
Talking to the group may be the first option and allow them to trade the powerful items for something else. Failing that, you may have to show them what is not fun by reversing the reverse gravity spell back to the PCs and drop them from 100ft on top of countering the fireballs and having wizards already having cast greater invisibility and resist fire/lightning.
Might not be the funest, best wat way to play, but it will show the group what is not fun and allow the teens to grow from experience.
Might not be the funest, best wat way to play, but it will show the group what is not fun and allow the teens to grow from experience.
AkaKageWarrior
Explorer
Interesting problems...
Already lots of good advice here!
I'm "DMing vs very good players" (good character builds (no big feat for 5e) and good tactics), and yes, it is a challenge.
The basic 5e design flaw IMO is: many monsters deal not enough damage, but have very high hitpoints. So some battles are simply boring, hacking away at some for round after round.
But nobody says you cannot change the monsters or the prebuilt adventures.
Change the encounters - too many fireballs? Give them some fire-resistant critters.
Or sometimes even cheat a little...
And prepare, prepare, prepare. Make BIG notes of the monsters best abilities.
I screwed up a few times as a DM when playing Rise of Tiamat, forgetting the dragons legendary actions, or some wizards' counterspell. That would have changed the encounters so much.
And wow, handing out a wand of reverse gravity at that level? Crazy.
I'm very miserly with magic items (and haven't found too many in HotDQ / RoT), and there's definitely no magic item shop around the corner. Maybe in a big city, with very limited stuff, for horrendous prices.
Player wants to buy a halberd +1? Let him roll, chances depending on campaign setting and city size, and then "oh, you're lucky, for 5000 gold it's yours" - assuming that the party's whole treasure might be just above these 5000.
Already lots of good advice here!
I'm "DMing vs very good players" (good character builds (no big feat for 5e) and good tactics), and yes, it is a challenge.
The basic 5e design flaw IMO is: many monsters deal not enough damage, but have very high hitpoints. So some battles are simply boring, hacking away at some for round after round.
But nobody says you cannot change the monsters or the prebuilt adventures.
Change the encounters - too many fireballs? Give them some fire-resistant critters.
Or sometimes even cheat a little...
And prepare, prepare, prepare. Make BIG notes of the monsters best abilities.
I screwed up a few times as a DM when playing Rise of Tiamat, forgetting the dragons legendary actions, or some wizards' counterspell. That would have changed the encounters so much.
And wow, handing out a wand of reverse gravity at that level? Crazy.
I'm very miserly with magic items (and haven't found too many in HotDQ / RoT), and there's definitely no magic item shop around the corner. Maybe in a big city, with very limited stuff, for horrendous prices.
Player wants to buy a halberd +1? Let him roll, chances depending on campaign setting and city size, and then "oh, you're lucky, for 5000 gold it's yours" - assuming that the party's whole treasure might be just above these 5000.
AkaKageWarrior
Explorer
And in case of doubt:
Start a new campaign!
;-)
Start a new campaign!
;-)
FrozenNorth
Hero
Having read through the entire thread, I think I have a better handle on the OP’s ask: How do I increase the challenge to the players while minimizing the amount of additional prep time?
I have 2 answers:
1. Enviromental effects that bite:
Take an afternoon and come ip with 20 environmental effects that you can use and re-use to make the existing combats more challenging. Include environmental effects in most combats. Have the occasional combat without environmental effects, but also have the occasional combat with two active.
Here are three to get you started:
A. Dense fog. Characters can see clearly within two squares, attack against the 3rd square is at disadvantage, squares beyond that cannot be targeted. This forces squishies to close in on monsters, heightening tension without nerfing them.
B. Necrotic empowerment (use only if the mosters have an attack that causes necrotic damage). Whenever any creature takes necrotic damage, they take an additional 10 necrotic damage at the end of each of their turns. Every turn, they can make a DC 17 Con save to stop the damage. In the alternative, they (or a character adjacent to them) can use their action to make a DC 13 Medicine check to end the effect.
C. Wild magic. Replace the PHB Wild magic table with something better. Ideally, 50% bad, 25% neutral, 25% good. Every time a character casts a non-cantrip spell, there is a 25% chance of a wild surge.
2. Level up monsters. Accept that regardless of what the blurb on the adventure says, a 7-character party has roughly twice the hp and deals twice the damage of a standard party. Take this into account:
A. Monsters all have max hp
B. Monsters are proficient in all saves (you’re still better off targeting an ogre’s Int saves, but now he has a chance of succeeding his save).
C. Monster attacks that targetted one character now target two. Monster AOEs are now 5’ larger.
D. Use Level Up monsters where possible
E. Be dynamic. If the players spend 20 minutes coming up with a plan, have the monsters attack them first. Be diligent to ensure every player acts quickly on their turn, so you can move to the next person.
Above all. Give yourself a break. Often, a DM can feel they are not challenging their players. Meanwhile, the players didn’t notice over the sound of their own awesomeness.
I have 2 answers:
1. Enviromental effects that bite:
Take an afternoon and come ip with 20 environmental effects that you can use and re-use to make the existing combats more challenging. Include environmental effects in most combats. Have the occasional combat without environmental effects, but also have the occasional combat with two active.
Here are three to get you started:
A. Dense fog. Characters can see clearly within two squares, attack against the 3rd square is at disadvantage, squares beyond that cannot be targeted. This forces squishies to close in on monsters, heightening tension without nerfing them.
B. Necrotic empowerment (use only if the mosters have an attack that causes necrotic damage). Whenever any creature takes necrotic damage, they take an additional 10 necrotic damage at the end of each of their turns. Every turn, they can make a DC 17 Con save to stop the damage. In the alternative, they (or a character adjacent to them) can use their action to make a DC 13 Medicine check to end the effect.
C. Wild magic. Replace the PHB Wild magic table with something better. Ideally, 50% bad, 25% neutral, 25% good. Every time a character casts a non-cantrip spell, there is a 25% chance of a wild surge.
2. Level up monsters. Accept that regardless of what the blurb on the adventure says, a 7-character party has roughly twice the hp and deals twice the damage of a standard party. Take this into account:
A. Monsters all have max hp
B. Monsters are proficient in all saves (you’re still better off targeting an ogre’s Int saves, but now he has a chance of succeeding his save).
C. Monster attacks that targetted one character now target two. Monster AOEs are now 5’ larger.
D. Use Level Up monsters where possible
E. Be dynamic. If the players spend 20 minutes coming up with a plan, have the monsters attack them first. Be diligent to ensure every player acts quickly on their turn, so you can move to the next person.
Above all. Give yourself a break. Often, a DM can feel they are not challenging their players. Meanwhile, the players didn’t notice over the sound of their own awesomeness.
Bolares
Hero
I don't see how 3PP adventures not following 5e's structure is 5e's fault.
Thanks for all the advice so far. I truly appreciate it. I'm not intending to ignore or disregard any ideas - I'm just trying to process everything and find a solution that doesn't come across as me being salty about my players. I'm really trying to make this a fun, challenging experience.
I am using Level Up when I can. I'm unsure of how to convert the existing original monsters to that power level. Increasing HP, damage, etc, is a good way. Environmental effects, adding minions, etc, also good ideas.
Taking away items or finding ways to counter them is also a good idea - for example, using flying enemies or shorter ceilings to counter Reverse Gravity.
They got a lot of treasure from the previous adventure, true. I was intending the campaign to wrap up shortly after that - just let them play one high level adventure with their new "toys." Since then, they wanted to stick with their characters, and I'm left wondering how to keep ramping up the challenge. They're only 6th level, and I'll be getting to the point soon when I can't keep adapting to the number of characters, the magic items, etc.
So I pulled out the highest level and most dangerous adventure in my collection, and it's barely a speedbump.
We used the prices from Level Up. They were loaded with coin - and even more since starting Necropolis. They got to buy whatever they wanted. It was easier for me to give them the range of the A5E tools site than to personally look through everything hundreds of thousands of gold could purchase for seven players (5 teenagers). And that's not good for the longevity of a campaign - and that's on me. However, I didn't expect it to get this wild and didn't expect it to be lasting long.
So yeah, I'm just trying to figure out how to make it fun for the short term, and then wrap it up.
I am using Level Up when I can. I'm unsure of how to convert the existing original monsters to that power level. Increasing HP, damage, etc, is a good way. Environmental effects, adding minions, etc, also good ideas.
Taking away items or finding ways to counter them is also a good idea - for example, using flying enemies or shorter ceilings to counter Reverse Gravity.
They got a lot of treasure from the previous adventure, true. I was intending the campaign to wrap up shortly after that - just let them play one high level adventure with their new "toys." Since then, they wanted to stick with their characters, and I'm left wondering how to keep ramping up the challenge. They're only 6th level, and I'll be getting to the point soon when I can't keep adapting to the number of characters, the magic items, etc.
So I pulled out the highest level and most dangerous adventure in my collection, and it's barely a speedbump.
We used the prices from Level Up. They were loaded with coin - and even more since starting Necropolis. They got to buy whatever they wanted. It was easier for me to give them the range of the A5E tools site than to personally look through everything hundreds of thousands of gold could purchase for seven players (5 teenagers). And that's not good for the longevity of a campaign - and that's on me. However, I didn't expect it to get this wild and didn't expect it to be lasting long.
So yeah, I'm just trying to figure out how to make it fun for the short term, and then wrap it up.
