D&D 5E A Mess of OP Characters (magic items, rest mechanics, etc.)

mamba

Legend
Wands recharge daily.
I'll have to be more clever to snatch away the overpowered items.
yep

20 ft. radius is pretty big. That's a 40 ft. diameter. I don't know how big most gaming tables and playmats are - but I have a pretty big Chessex mat. And they were spread out pretty well, especially when you want them close enough together to give flanking to each other and sneak attacks.
that is 8 squares diameter, battlemaps should easily cover that, in fact your encounter should spread them out simply because they have that wand ;) Well, next time make it 50 bandits.... better yet make it 50 ogres, give them a challenge and you an opportunity to slap the mage around and break that wand ;)
 

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Oofta

Legend
Here are two examples from last night's session. (Keep in mind that 2 players were absent, so we had a more manageable 5 players instead of 7.)

Encounter Example 1: Bandit Attack

Party comes upon a group of 13 CR 1/2 bandits, 1 CR 8 Fighter/Rogue, 1 CR 8 Cleric, and 1 CR 8 Wizard. (According to the Encounter Calculator, that's a Deadly encounter at 23 Challenge Rating.) The party was moving silently and taking cover, approaching the bandit camp. On one side of the road were 7 bandits and the Fighter/Rogue captain; the other side was the wizard, cleric, and 6 additional bandits.

The party was sneaking and beat the scouts' Perception. They also beat most everyone on Initiative. Party's sorcerer dropped a fireball on the side of the road containing the 6 bandits and the cleric and wizard. He is out of reach for Counterspell. Bandits killed instantly. Wizard gets pincushioned by ranger's longbow. Down to 4 HP, wizard casts invisibility and moves to behind cleric. Cleric casts 5th level cure wounds on the invisible wizard. Some minor attacks are done by the rest of the party - barbarian moves up and rages and fights bandit captain and is surrounded by seven other bandits. Not a lot of damage is done to the barbarian.

So everyone made high stealth checks? How did they know the bandits were there and why did the bandits not have multiple guards posted? If this is a camp, why wouldn't the bandits have some kind of traps set up, even just the typical "bell on a string"? How does a group of 7 sneak up if it's completely barren desert? What were they hiding behind? Even at night, unless it's cloudy, they should have been spotted.

I agree that it's a deadly encounter assuming it's a normal encounter. But you stacked everything in the PC's favor.

Sorcerer then casts Reverse Gravity from the wand - with enough range to get all the enemies. There is nothing but sand for the enemies to grab onto. The barbarian also flies up with the rest of the enemies. Sorcerer drops the spell. Everyone plummets 100 feet - but the sorcerer casts Feather Fall onto the barbarian, who safely floats to the ground. Everyone but the bandit captain is dead - and he surrenders.

Nuke the Reverse Gravity wand from orbit, it's the only way to be sure. This is an insanely overpowered item, far more powerful than any official wand in the book. There are a couple of staffs that cast 7th level spells but they're legendary items (although admittedly they do other cool stuff too).

Second, this is a picture of the desert just outside of the Phoenix area. People greatly underestimate how much grows in most deserts, the Sahara is a very extreme example. Sure there are other deserts that are as desolate as the Sahara, but most of the Southwest US looks much like this. Not only would people be able to grab onto things (even if you're really going to regret grabbing onto that Cholla) there's also potentially issues with line of sight.

An example from a picture I took a week or so ago:

20230222_080026.jpg


My take: Yes, the Reverse Gravity Wand is overpowered for their level, but honestly - what would've changed without it? Every bandit was already dead. The wizard and cleric were down to about 1/3rd hp after one round. At best, the fight would've gone one more round, taxed nearly no resources, and done a middling of damage to the party. A 23 Challenge Rating fight?

By my calculation (I use an alternate calculator, see the attached) it comes in at 129% where 100% is deadly. So only slightly lower, and given the OP nature of the party I'd calculate the PCs at level 8 or higher. The problem with the calculation you're using is likely that it's counting the bandits as multipliers. The bandits are such a low level I'm not even sure I'd consider them in the calculation.

But again, everyone getting a surprise round attack with a broken wand while having unlimited line of sight and I'm not surprised at the outcome.

Encounter Example 2: Lycanthrope Pack


Party is approached by a pack of 9 various lycanthropes (CR 16). As they approach, fireball dropped, killing half of them. Then - AND THIS IS MY MISTAKE - twin spell fireball a second time to kill off the stragglers who still have 11 HP or so each.

Again ... PC win initiative and all 9 lycanthropes show up in fireball formation? They should have come from all, directions, in waves, several coming from behind total cover. How many HP did the lycanthropes have? A CR 16 monster should have a around 200 HP or more. How did 2 fireballs take them down so far? Even maxed out, a fireball will only do 48 points of damage assuming they all failed their save.

In addition, this sounds like the only fight for the day, or perhaps the second?

My take: Didn't know until reading DND Beyond discussions with designers that isn't spelled out in the book that a sorcerer's twin spell can only be used for cantrips. I will get resistance bringing this up in my group of rules lawyers. But that could've prolonged the combat "maybe" one more turn. There were 5 enemies left who still had a few HP. More than likely, barbarian would've killed two of them on the next round, Rogue killed one on her turn. And then the ranger killed the next two on his turn. In short - it wouldn't have mattered significantly.


The wand of reverse gravity has to go. Period. But it still feel like we're missing something. For example in the first fight the CR 8 wizard in the official rules has 90 HP, I don't know how they're being dropped to 4 HP in a single round by the ranger. For what it's worth, I give NPC wizards more useful spell like Shield, and frequently assume they have mage armor up at all times. There's always maxing out HP of course.

My alternate CR calculator is attached. I'm sure you could do the calculations more easily, but it's something I downloaded long ago and it works reasonably well for me even if I have to adjust PC level up or down a bit depending on the group.
 

Attachments

  • Encounter Building.xls
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Oofta

Legend
Some of my own suggestions when I face similar situations of larger groups of players:

- Max HP every monster.

- Add a bonus to every monster's attack roll equal to their HD equivalent of proficiency bonus (so up to CR 4 creatures get a +2, CR 5-8 get a +3 etc.) And add an extra die of damage to every attack. (Monster stats are too low in the MM as-is.)

- Monsters that have Resistance To Non-Magical Bludgeoning, Piercing & Slashing Weapons instead have Resistance to ALL Bludgeoning, Piercing & Slashing Weapons (regardless if they are magical or not.) For my money if Barbarians at 1st level get that ability to Resist all B/P/S attacks (magical or no), then almost all monsters that have Resistance to B/P/S should get the same thing.

- Don't use the Encounter Building rules, just throw down whatever you want on the battlefield. Or if you HAVE to use those rules, definitely do not use the rule that doubles the encounter worth for more enemies than the party-- because thinking 13 CR 1/2 bandits is worthy of balancing an encounter is not true in the slightest. For my money, also stop using anything lower than CR 2 after PC level 5 unless you treat them all essentially as minions that are meant to just make the players feel cool by crushing waves of them. If you take those "minions" out of the equation of your first encounter, you had 5 PCs versus 3 worthwhile enemies. So of course they were going to be slaughtered. Instead, make an encounter of equal numbers of powerful enemies and then throw a bunch of mooks onto the battlefield for flavor (since you know for a fact they will all die almost instantly from AoEs.)

I rarely use any monster with CR less than PC level - 3 unless I don't count them in the calculation or have a special role for them. CR 1/2 monsters are simply too squishy for PC level 6. As it says in the DMG When making this calculation [the CR calculator in the book], don’t count any monsters whose challenge rating is significantly below the average challenge rating of the other monsters in the group unless you think the weak monsters significantly contribute to the difficulty of the encounter.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
I've killed 3rd level characters before. The game stops being challenging around 5th level, IMO.
That's just REALLY different from my experience. I've run 15th-20th level quite a bit now. The groups were challenged plenty.


The thing is, I can't run a string of 8 encounters in a day. It's impossible to have any sort of verisimilitude in the game world (and gets exhausting spending all of our gametime on pointless fights). If we were in a dungeon, sure, that's possible. But in an open wilderness or in a small town, you just can't do it. You can't be walking around a town, trying to find the evil wizard, and get attacked by 7 encounters of wyverns in a row, then find the guy at the end of the day, and have a fight.

That's not how D&D works. And frankly I'm amazed that the design team thought that was acceptable game design.

2 options. then:

1. The long rest variant. Don't squeeze all of the encounters in a day. Put them into a week+.

2. More difficult encounters where the group does not get the drop. Instead, where the bad guys get the drop, or where the group can't NOVA like they seem to be accustomed to.

As for published adventures? That's a challenge, but it means you have to read ahead and plan. Make the bad guys live outside the module as it were. It's one reason I'm not huge on Published adventures, making them run smoothly often requires more work than just writing out a scenario myself!
 

mamba

Legend
It's frustrating when you buy an adventure that's supposed to be "mega challenging" for 6-8 "seasoned" players and it's a cakewalk for 7 teenagers new to the game.
[...]

Honestly, what am I paying for?
how is the adventure apart from that? I was wondering about it, but the 6-8 players and very challenging kept me away ;)
 

Retreater

Legend
Again ... PC win initiative and all 9 lycanthropes show up in fireball formation? They should have come from all, directions, in waves, several coming from behind total cover. How many HP did the lycanthropes have? A CR 16 monster should have a around 200 HP or more. How did 2 fireballs take them down so far? Even maxed out, a fireball will only do 48 points of damage assuming they all failed their save.

In addition, this sounds like the only fight for the day, or perhaps the second?
Second fight of the day.
It was a combined CR 16 encounter. None of the individual monsters had more than 44 hp. They were killed because they each failed at least 1 save. And it was two fireballs, because I made an error about the Quickened spell metamagic feat.
They came from a couple of directions, designed to make an imposing entrance in a crowded interior. That's how the module presents it. I guess I can redesign every room in the entire adventure, but in the end, what's the point of using something published if I'm changing everything?
In case you're curious, I'm putting in examples of the art from the adventure so you have a better indication of the terrain of the bandit attack and lycanthrope ambush. Once you show art like this to your players and describe using the boxed text, you're sort of not able to change the descriptions to make the combats more challenging. That's why I'm trying to prep now before I DM myself into another hole.

duat.png
 

Attachments

  • desert.png
    desert.png
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Retreater

Legend
how is the adventure apart from that? I was wondering about it, but the 6-8 players and very challenging kept me away ;)
Apparently, I don't think it's very challenging (at least, not yet). There is a fight coming up that I think will be very difficult - even if they keep the wand of reverse gravity and double fireballs, etc.
I expect I can run it by the book and still get a TPK. And while it's definitely possible to raise them from the dead, they would lose their equipment. So it's all possible to get it back on track, at least temporarily.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
Second fight of the day.
It was a combined CR 16 encounter. None of the individual monsters had more than 44 hp. They were killed because they each failed at least 1 save. And it was two fireballs, because I made an error about the Quickened spell metamagic feat.
They came from a couple of directions, designed to make an imposing entrance in a crowded interior. That's how the module presents it. I guess I can redesign every room in the entire adventure, but in the end, what's the point of using something published if I'm changing everything?
In case you're curious, I'm putting in examples of the art from the adventure so you have a better indication of the terrain of the bandit attack and lycanthrope ambush. Once you show art like this to your players and describe using the boxed text, you're sort of not able to change the descriptions to make the combats more challenging. That's why I'm trying to prep now before I DM myself into another hole.

View attachment 277519

I'm not familiar with this adventure. But, at some point, considering the PCs are cutting through it like a buzzsaw, consider having the remaining opponents recognize the threat and start REALLY taking the fight to the PCs!

No more opportunity for sneaking up on the bad guys, instead have the PCs constantly worried (justifiably) about getting snuck up on. And again, waves (frankly, waves are GREAT for the barbarian in the group, who gets to keep his rage - they're just less ideal for the casters).
 

Stop using standard rest rules. Go to gritty, it will fix a lot of your issues. 5e fundamentally underestimated how often players are getting to rest under standard rules.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
Stop using standard rest rules. Go to gritty, it will fix a lot of your issues. 5e fundamentally underestimated how often players are getting to rest under standard rules.

While I agree, it's a bit more than that.

If players are allowed to dictate the pace of play (as in rest whenever they want) it doesn't really matter if they take 1 hour, 8 hours or 1 week. There has to be time pressure preventing the players from dictating the pace all the time. I'm not talking about constant doom clocks (you have 4 hours until the world ends) just real time pressure that encourages PCs to not take forever and always be on their own time table.
 

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