Redeemer_Elistor
First Post
(deleted)
See the posts below.
See the posts below.
A message to all the new Redeemers from Elistor's player
- Thread starter Redeemer_Elistor
- Start date
Kathryn_aka_Kat
First Post
Hi. Just a little curious, why use ENWorld's boards and not the Map of the Planes board here, since you're running the chat-side part of it on Wizards?
R
Redeemer_Tahereh
Guest
Being one of the only rare real Redeemers from the time of Lumin and Astaegloss, the creator of them. I would like to advise that this is not something we have agreed upon, the counsel does not back this. Any and all Redeemers involved are not Redeemers, and if they have any sense of conscienceness should stop using the tag and claiming to follow the god Teht. If you want some war, make up someone new to do it rather than shredding apart something a man made in the 1980's. Don't you have any imagination of your own or any respect for a man's work not to destroy it? The Redeemers are not gone from this site, as I still come upon occassion as do the couple others that hold the real tags. It frankly disgusts me to see this type of behavior. The Redeemers of Teht do not kill non-humans, they have nothing to do with them for they lack souls and are not worth their time. The Redeemers of Teht do not wildly kill mages, they attempt to redeem their souls. The Redeemers do this because there are no restrains on wielding such wizards' magic, as there is with clerics. They have reasons for such actions.
I ask you to stop making a mockery of this man's work and to create something new.
Tahereh's player
I ask you to stop making a mockery of this man's work and to create something new.
Tahereh's player
Redeemer_Elistor
First Post
(from Redeemer_Elistor's player)
I am withdrawing my Redeemers from play.
I wish to notify all my friends that the players of the old Redeemers have contacted me and asked me to do so, and that I have agreed to their request.
I do not wish to hijack someone else's concept and/or ruin it (character concepts should be respected, not trampled on.)
May I request to my friends we avoid playing Redeemers? It's up to you, of course, but at least for myself I am stopping.
Yours Sincerely
Redeemer_Elistor
I am withdrawing my Redeemers from play.
I wish to notify all my friends that the players of the old Redeemers have contacted me and asked me to do so, and that I have agreed to their request.
I do not wish to hijack someone else's concept and/or ruin it (character concepts should be respected, not trampled on.)
May I request to my friends we avoid playing Redeemers? It's up to you, of course, but at least for myself I am stopping.
Yours Sincerely
Redeemer_Elistor
I find this rather disappointing.
It is not a trampling to try to do a spin on someone's work, in my opinion, but an homage. It means that those who did a little spin off had enough interest in what was created that they wanted to play with it a little.
Nothing good ever comes from creating something and then demanding that it stay as it was originally made.
Furthermore, the redeemer idea and such were printed on line so that others could see and use them. If he wanted it to stay so pristine and original, he should not have posted it publicly. When you post something publicly, you pretty much put it out there for others to read through, interpret, and use as they wish.
It is not a mockery, it is not a slap. If anything, as I have said before, it is a GOOD thing that others wish to use them and put a spin on them. THAT is creativity. If they were uncreative, they'd stick with what they used to be so long ago.
I mean, come on... how many game designers do you see put out stuff for publication and then go "I'm sorry, but I don't want you to use these concepts I created this way, because that's not how I originally intended them." I mean, sure, you may hear someone lament it once in a while, but they don't do it like this.
Besides... if Astaegloss has such a problem with the way Elistor's player was playing them... then why didn't he come here himself and say so?
Stop speaking for Astaegloss, all of you, and let the man let his own words be known.
Respectfully,
Krystal
It is not a trampling to try to do a spin on someone's work, in my opinion, but an homage. It means that those who did a little spin off had enough interest in what was created that they wanted to play with it a little.
Nothing good ever comes from creating something and then demanding that it stay as it was originally made.
Furthermore, the redeemer idea and such were printed on line so that others could see and use them. If he wanted it to stay so pristine and original, he should not have posted it publicly. When you post something publicly, you pretty much put it out there for others to read through, interpret, and use as they wish.
It is not a mockery, it is not a slap. If anything, as I have said before, it is a GOOD thing that others wish to use them and put a spin on them. THAT is creativity. If they were uncreative, they'd stick with what they used to be so long ago.
I mean, come on... how many game designers do you see put out stuff for publication and then go "I'm sorry, but I don't want you to use these concepts I created this way, because that's not how I originally intended them." I mean, sure, you may hear someone lament it once in a while, but they don't do it like this.
Besides... if Astaegloss has such a problem with the way Elistor's player was playing them... then why didn't he come here himself and say so?
Stop speaking for Astaegloss, all of you, and let the man let his own words be known.
Respectfully,
Krystal
E
Eddie_Hawkins
Guest
I can hold this in no longer. To the three individuals that this is addressed, please read this post in its entirety as there are a few things I may say in parts before or after yours that may say what I'm trying to say better than what I said in yours. It's just too much work to go back and re-edit it all again, though I tried to keep this all inoffensive.
To Tahereh's Player: I agree with Krystal's player, if not with how she worded it. (No offense.) If Astaegloss has a problem with this, let him come forward. If you know him, inform him so that he might do so. That should be your role, other than simply giving your opinion. Just because you are one of the originals, that does not give you the right to demand that others play it as it lies. (No offense, but thems the facts.) The only one who has the right to do so is Astaegloss, and that isn't you.
Astaegloss posted the information about his Redeemers for a reason, whatever that may be. But if he would have not wanted them tampered with, I think, as a fellow writer, that he would have included that request in the information posted.
Elistor's player and his/her friends have a completely reasonable variation that they have modeled their characters after. Just about all religious orders faction. And these factions are reasonable.
Since Astaegloss posted the information on his Redeemers publicly, with no additional wishes as to the level of integrity any newer versions that may arise should hold with respect to the originals, this was bound to happen. And it isn't necessarily a bad thing. For all you know, Astaegloss may be pleasantly suprised by a direction his creation, that seems to me to have obtained a life of its own, a life seeded by Astaegloss himself, has taken. This sort of thing is actually pleasant for some writers. It's like a child grown up and embarking on its own.
Let Astaegloss make up his own mind, develop his own opinion, about how to view this. Let him decide if this aparent cruesade you have begun on his behalf is necessary, or even wanted.
To Krystal's player: I think what you are trying to say is that creativity and change is good. Yes, even changing creativity. Astaegloss created and then posted his creation publicly, thus opening it up to the possibility of change. He allowed it to leave his hands and allowed it to possibly enter the hands of others. And in doing so, therein lied the possibility of change through those possible hands, should they be creative enough and motivated enough by Astaegloss' creation.
I think what you are trying to communicate is that, to a writer, being inspired may be a wonderful gift, but being inspiration is so much more wonderful, much rarer a gift than we can ever expect. I think you are trying to say that your opinion is that Astaegloss will react with pride and will be pleased.
Well, as a writer, that's what I'm getting from what you said.
To Elistor's player: We have met,briefly. You directed Elistor to offer to heal Eddie. I directed him to decline. Just thought I'd remind you.
I do not reccommend withdrawing your character. You and your friends have simply brought a creative idea into the future from the past. Most, if not all, worthy ideas are built upon other worthy ideas in the past.
I had heard of the Redeemers when I first arrived on Wizards Chat. I was told of them as a thing of the past, as if they were ancient relics of a bygone time. Speaking as a writer, I know that I wouldn't want my creation to become that. I would want it to continue. As a writer, I create for the enjoyment of others. You and your friends are merely helping Astaegloss' intent, to entertain others, to continue instead of dying out.
Your intent was good. That is what matters. That you enjoyed what you have taken, regardless of which direction you have taken it, well, I feel confident that that is what Astaegloss would most likely see as the important thing.
Although I cannot say for certain, since I don't know Astaegloss, I believe I know a part of him, as a writer. I believe he'd understand that he practically gave his approval for use of his creation in any way that they may be used, whether as is or as inspiration, when he released them to you and everyone else that has viewed them since the public release of Astaegloss' Redeemers of Teht. I don't think he'd want you and your friends to withdraw.
My unsolicited advice? Enjoy yourselves and continue to do so, as was Astaegloss' wish when he gave us all his creation.
Best wishes to all and lets just try to enjoy our own creativity as well as the creativity others have offered us.
By the way, I just acquired this quote from Astaegloss' website:
Sounds to me that Astaegloss is well aware that his Redeemers might have changed in another's hands after they were posted! Yes, it says in games other than FFO, but I think it shows his feelings on the subject quite clearly. Shouldn't this end this discussion unless Astaegloss himself made his feelings known, directly?
To Tahereh's Player: I agree with Krystal's player, if not with how she worded it. (No offense.) If Astaegloss has a problem with this, let him come forward. If you know him, inform him so that he might do so. That should be your role, other than simply giving your opinion. Just because you are one of the originals, that does not give you the right to demand that others play it as it lies. (No offense, but thems the facts.) The only one who has the right to do so is Astaegloss, and that isn't you.
Astaegloss posted the information about his Redeemers for a reason, whatever that may be. But if he would have not wanted them tampered with, I think, as a fellow writer, that he would have included that request in the information posted.
Elistor's player and his/her friends have a completely reasonable variation that they have modeled their characters after. Just about all religious orders faction. And these factions are reasonable.
Since Astaegloss posted the information on his Redeemers publicly, with no additional wishes as to the level of integrity any newer versions that may arise should hold with respect to the originals, this was bound to happen. And it isn't necessarily a bad thing. For all you know, Astaegloss may be pleasantly suprised by a direction his creation, that seems to me to have obtained a life of its own, a life seeded by Astaegloss himself, has taken. This sort of thing is actually pleasant for some writers. It's like a child grown up and embarking on its own.
Let Astaegloss make up his own mind, develop his own opinion, about how to view this. Let him decide if this aparent cruesade you have begun on his behalf is necessary, or even wanted.
To Krystal's player: I think what you are trying to say is that creativity and change is good. Yes, even changing creativity. Astaegloss created and then posted his creation publicly, thus opening it up to the possibility of change. He allowed it to leave his hands and allowed it to possibly enter the hands of others. And in doing so, therein lied the possibility of change through those possible hands, should they be creative enough and motivated enough by Astaegloss' creation.
I think what you are trying to communicate is that, to a writer, being inspired may be a wonderful gift, but being inspiration is so much more wonderful, much rarer a gift than we can ever expect. I think you are trying to say that your opinion is that Astaegloss will react with pride and will be pleased.
Well, as a writer, that's what I'm getting from what you said.
To Elistor's player: We have met,briefly. You directed Elistor to offer to heal Eddie. I directed him to decline. Just thought I'd remind you.
I do not reccommend withdrawing your character. You and your friends have simply brought a creative idea into the future from the past. Most, if not all, worthy ideas are built upon other worthy ideas in the past.
I had heard of the Redeemers when I first arrived on Wizards Chat. I was told of them as a thing of the past, as if they were ancient relics of a bygone time. Speaking as a writer, I know that I wouldn't want my creation to become that. I would want it to continue. As a writer, I create for the enjoyment of others. You and your friends are merely helping Astaegloss' intent, to entertain others, to continue instead of dying out.
Your intent was good. That is what matters. That you enjoyed what you have taken, regardless of which direction you have taken it, well, I feel confident that that is what Astaegloss would most likely see as the important thing.
Although I cannot say for certain, since I don't know Astaegloss, I believe I know a part of him, as a writer. I believe he'd understand that he practically gave his approval for use of his creation in any way that they may be used, whether as is or as inspiration, when he released them to you and everyone else that has viewed them since the public release of Astaegloss' Redeemers of Teht. I don't think he'd want you and your friends to withdraw.
My unsolicited advice? Enjoy yourselves and continue to do so, as was Astaegloss' wish when he gave us all his creation.
Best wishes to all and lets just try to enjoy our own creativity as well as the creativity others have offered us.
By the way, I just acquired this quote from Astaegloss' website:
Sounds to me that Astaegloss is well aware that his Redeemers might have changed in another's hands after they were posted! Yes, it says in games other than FFO, but I think it shows his feelings on the subject quite clearly. Shouldn't this end this discussion unless Astaegloss himself made his feelings known, directly?
E
Eddie_Hawkins
Guest
Letter to Astaegloss:
Because I am seeing a marked lack of a response from the creator of the Redeemers since this problem has arisen oh so long ago (as this problem has existed long before this thread, of course), I thought I would write him concerning this matter using the email address on the sight that his creations are publically posted for others to use. The correspondance was Mailer Daemoned.
So, because I haven't seen any mention of anyone else attempting to contact Astaelgloss (which, admittingly, could be an oversight by myself - if anyone else has actually seen some mention of an attempt, please feel free to correct me, in a friendly and respectful manner), I am making a second attempt here. I am posting my letter to Astaegloss here in hopes that it somehow gets to him.
Hello.
I was wondering if I may make a request?
There is a great debate currently being waged in your name on the Wizards of the Coast Community chat site and message boards. It seems someone has ressurrected your Redeemers with a few changes. Simply put, they have created factions among your Redeemers and are playing characters from various factions.
It seems there is one of the original Redeemers (Redeemer_Tahereh), whose player now plays another character, who is taking quite a bit of offense at the goings on. It seems that the player is waging a little war on the new Redeemers, in your name, demanding that they withdraw their characters immediately, or some such, because they are deviating from the original version and that they declined to ask permission to do so. And because of this one person's demands - on your behalf, mind - those who have found inspiration, have found enjoyment, in your creation (which was the point, wasn't it?), are doing exactly what is being demanded of them. They are withdrawing their characters.
Listen, I don't pretend to know you from Adam, but I am a writer, too. I know that a writer receives joy from knowing that others enjoy their creations. I also know that a writer receives even greater joy from knowing that his creation has inspired others, as he was once inspired. That a writer can do both of these things for others, with his or her creation, that is true bliss. That is a true gift from the writer to others.
I know that you hoped others might find and enjoy playing your creations, whether in an Online format or some other, when you posted them publicly and openly. When I saw your site, I didn't see any requests to not modify your creation. In fact, you said something to the effect that you would like to know how your Redeemers fare in other games. Yes, I know you mentioned "games other than Free Form Online format". However, it was still an admission that they must be modified for those games. Why then must those wishing to play a modified Redeemer online be denied that same privelege?
As a writer, I have come to announce that your creation, which you have released into the world for others to enjoy, has been found. I have also come to announce that, once found, your creation did much more than entertain and cause enjoyment. It has inspired. I have come to do more than to make these joyful announcements. I have come to make a few more that are dire, and to make a humble request.
I have come to announce that someone who claims to know you is attempting to quiet the joy and inspiration that you have caused. This person is doing so because they believe that this is what you would want, that you would have them do. As far as I know, this person has not mentioned to anyone that they have attempted to contact you regarding this matter.
I have come to make a humble request. I ask that you make an appearance on the Wizards message boards and to please defend the joy and inspiration that you have planted in others, that has blossomed. Please, for the sake of others who are attempting to honor you by taking up the torch, so to speak. But not just for them. Also for that one person who is attacking them in your name. Please help that person to not make this mistake and to realize that there is room for all Redeemer factions. After all, can anyone show me a religion that has never factioned?
For your review, here is the link to the thread where this is being discussed. Link removed for this post.)
Thank you for your time and I hope this reaches you more swiftly than you suggest on the Redeemer website. Otherwise, I don't know how else to reach you regarding this issue.
(Real name ommitted for this post.)
Eddie_Hawkins
There was no offensive intentions inherent in my wish to contact Astaegloss, to the one person who seems so adament on carrying out this "purge" nor to the creator of the original Redeemers himself. Therefore I hope none is taken.
Good day.
Because I am seeing a marked lack of a response from the creator of the Redeemers since this problem has arisen oh so long ago (as this problem has existed long before this thread, of course), I thought I would write him concerning this matter using the email address on the sight that his creations are publically posted for others to use. The correspondance was Mailer Daemoned.
So, because I haven't seen any mention of anyone else attempting to contact Astaelgloss (which, admittingly, could be an oversight by myself - if anyone else has actually seen some mention of an attempt, please feel free to correct me, in a friendly and respectful manner), I am making a second attempt here. I am posting my letter to Astaegloss here in hopes that it somehow gets to him.
Hello.
I was wondering if I may make a request?
There is a great debate currently being waged in your name on the Wizards of the Coast Community chat site and message boards. It seems someone has ressurrected your Redeemers with a few changes. Simply put, they have created factions among your Redeemers and are playing characters from various factions.
It seems there is one of the original Redeemers (Redeemer_Tahereh), whose player now plays another character, who is taking quite a bit of offense at the goings on. It seems that the player is waging a little war on the new Redeemers, in your name, demanding that they withdraw their characters immediately, or some such, because they are deviating from the original version and that they declined to ask permission to do so. And because of this one person's demands - on your behalf, mind - those who have found inspiration, have found enjoyment, in your creation (which was the point, wasn't it?), are doing exactly what is being demanded of them. They are withdrawing their characters.
Listen, I don't pretend to know you from Adam, but I am a writer, too. I know that a writer receives joy from knowing that others enjoy their creations. I also know that a writer receives even greater joy from knowing that his creation has inspired others, as he was once inspired. That a writer can do both of these things for others, with his or her creation, that is true bliss. That is a true gift from the writer to others.
I know that you hoped others might find and enjoy playing your creations, whether in an Online format or some other, when you posted them publicly and openly. When I saw your site, I didn't see any requests to not modify your creation. In fact, you said something to the effect that you would like to know how your Redeemers fare in other games. Yes, I know you mentioned "games other than Free Form Online format". However, it was still an admission that they must be modified for those games. Why then must those wishing to play a modified Redeemer online be denied that same privelege?
As a writer, I have come to announce that your creation, which you have released into the world for others to enjoy, has been found. I have also come to announce that, once found, your creation did much more than entertain and cause enjoyment. It has inspired. I have come to do more than to make these joyful announcements. I have come to make a few more that are dire, and to make a humble request.
I have come to announce that someone who claims to know you is attempting to quiet the joy and inspiration that you have caused. This person is doing so because they believe that this is what you would want, that you would have them do. As far as I know, this person has not mentioned to anyone that they have attempted to contact you regarding this matter.
I have come to make a humble request. I ask that you make an appearance on the Wizards message boards and to please defend the joy and inspiration that you have planted in others, that has blossomed. Please, for the sake of others who are attempting to honor you by taking up the torch, so to speak. But not just for them. Also for that one person who is attacking them in your name. Please help that person to not make this mistake and to realize that there is room for all Redeemer factions. After all, can anyone show me a religion that has never factioned?
For your review, here is the link to the thread where this is being discussed. Link removed for this post.)
Thank you for your time and I hope this reaches you more swiftly than you suggest on the Redeemer website. Otherwise, I don't know how else to reach you regarding this issue.
(Real name ommitted for this post.)
Eddie_Hawkins
There was no offensive intentions inherent in my wish to contact Astaegloss, to the one person who seems so adament on carrying out this "purge" nor to the creator of the original Redeemers himself. Therefore I hope none is taken.
Good day.
S
Shenlong_Gundam
Guest
Ol' fogie here, listen up
Tehereh, I for one, have to agree with Krystal. I enjoyed the Redeemers when I first came to this site, when they first came. I even butted heads with quite a few of them. And on another side, I have to disagree with you yourself. You claim the Redeemers that have attacked non-humans and mages are not true 'Deemers, but I also recall that the Redeemers from the original era of their power upon Wizards did indeed attack non-humans and threaten mages instead of trying to Redeem them. Though, I have only scene a single case of an actual wild attack upon a mage, which if I recall correctly, that player was dealt with by Lumin's.
Eddie, you have brought up a grand point. Astaelgloss should be the one speaking here, not Tehereh. Even though us old hands on site have generally stuck together, this is a time that I must break from that. But, as for your problem with the e-mail, the Redeemer Website is slightly out of date. Having not been updated since April 21, 2000. Which would explain your inability to contact him. By now, that e-mail has been deleted from yahoo.
Chris A.K.A. Shenlong
Tehereh, I for one, have to agree with Krystal. I enjoyed the Redeemers when I first came to this site, when they first came. I even butted heads with quite a few of them. And on another side, I have to disagree with you yourself. You claim the Redeemers that have attacked non-humans and mages are not true 'Deemers, but I also recall that the Redeemers from the original era of their power upon Wizards did indeed attack non-humans and threaten mages instead of trying to Redeem them. Though, I have only scene a single case of an actual wild attack upon a mage, which if I recall correctly, that player was dealt with by Lumin's.
Eddie, you have brought up a grand point. Astaelgloss should be the one speaking here, not Tehereh. Even though us old hands on site have generally stuck together, this is a time that I must break from that. But, as for your problem with the e-mail, the Redeemer Website is slightly out of date. Having not been updated since April 21, 2000. Which would explain your inability to contact him. By now, that e-mail has been deleted from yahoo.
Chris A.K.A. Shenlong
