A New Paladin

(3) The Rogue. Aside from increasing all classes' skill points as I have done--which is a big improvement roleplaying wise/believability wise, I think the Rogue works pretty good as is. The Rogue actually has appropriate powers to fight with and evade, use stealth, and all the interesting abilities that a Rogue can choose to develop, and actually *excel* in, actually makes a person's vision of a rogue workable with the base Rogue. With NPC Rogues, I can't say I've ever had any complaints or frustrations really. Furthermore, only a few prestige classes have been really tempting, because oftentimes for the *vision* the base Rogue seems to do a very good and flexible job.

Rogue's suffer three major problems; combat shutdown (aka no sneak attack monsters at high-levels), skill point starvation (it appears you've fixed that) and lack of high-level options (beyond the initial six in the PHB). The good news is all three can be easily fixed.

1.) Make sneak attack work on any foe, not just against crittable monsters. This is the path 4e and Pathfinder took, and it makes a lot of sense. It keeps the rogue viable in undead-heavy games without resorting to "patches". Alternately, make sneak attack 1/2 dice against non-crit foes. That maintains the flavor of sneak attack being weak against some foes, but doesn't gimp the rogue completely.

2.) Fixed. Either condense skills or increase skill points. Anything to make Int less important than Dex.

3.) Add some good prestige-class abilities as high-level rogue options. Hide in Plain Sight is an obvious one. Assassin's death attack is another. In fact, you could probably kill the swashbuckler/duelist and take its stuff as well.

The biggest rogue-fix though is a continued nerf-sticking of wizard spells like invisibility, spider-climb, and knock, as well as magic items that auto-success rogue skills. These spells + easy magic item creation = less fun for rogue players.

Hope that helps.

Remathilis - resident rogue aficionado.
 

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One of my biggest troubles with Rogues, a class I love, is the MAD, mostly due to a required high con score. A Rogue will want dex and int, obviously, and often wants a good charisma as well for social skills. But with only d6 HD and poor fortitude saves, and the expectation the Rogue will see melee slightly more often than the cleric, who gets a d8...forgoing a large con score seems patently suicidal, andm ore so than the norm.

I haven't implemented it yet, but I think the next campaign I will switch to my long-held plan of swapping Cleric and Druid HD with Rogue and Bard. In other words, the full casters get the pleasure of sucking down a d6, and the jacks of all trades will get the d8.

As for fortitude...I don't know. I've also long pondered how broken it would be to just let players pick what their good and poor saves are. Sure, fortitude would at first seem to be the overwhelming choce and would make the houserule broken, but i think it could self-correct. If everyone's taking Fortitude as a good save because it's often the one used for save-or-die (and poison, of course), any ability relying on a fort save becomes immediately weaker and thus is used less frequently. This idea isn't specific to Rogue, though. I kind of want to screw with saving throw metagaming. Everyone knows what saves to use against someone based on how they look or fight, and it gets annoying. Sure, I do things to throw the players off the first round, like a mage in robes glamered to look like full plate, but I'd rather just make things always uncertain.
Multiclassing could easily break such a houserule, so I'd probably limit the "pick your good saves" rule ot the class you take at level 1 only.

Just my various thoughts.
 

Rogue's suffer three major problems; combat shutdown (aka no sneak attack monsters at high-levels), skill point starvation (it appears you've fixed that) and lack of high-level options (beyond the initial six in the PHB). The good news is all three can be easily fixed.

1.) Make sneak attack work on any foe, not just against crittable monsters. This is the path 4e and Pathfinder took, and it makes a lot of sense. It keeps the rogue viable in undead-heavy games without resorting to "patches". Alternately, make sneak attack 1/2 dice against non-crit foes. That maintains the flavor of sneak attack being weak against some foes, but doesn't gimp the rogue completely.

2.) Fixed. Either condense skills or increase skill points. Anything to make Int less important than Dex.

3.) Add some good prestige-class abilities as high-level rogue options. Hide in Plain Sight is an obvious one. Assassin's death attack is another. In fact, you could probably kill the swashbuckler/duelist and take its stuff as well.

The biggest rogue-fix though is a continued nerf-sticking of wizard spells like invisibility, spider-climb, and knock, as well as magic items that auto-success rogue skills. These spells + easy magic item creation = less fun for rogue players.

Hope that helps.

Remathilis - resident rogue aficionado.

Greetings!

Excellent points, Remathilis! Your analysis of Rogues is outstanding.:cool:

I'll be sure to incorporate your ideas for the Rogue. Looks very good, and accurate.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
 

RE: Rogue

FWIW, I personally don't care for the first 2 changes Remathilis suggested for the rogue.

RE: Paladins

I don't like the Feat per level idea- it takes too much from the Fighter.

Were I redrafting the Paladin, I'd start off with looking at Green Ronin's Book of the Righteous, possibly even getting the 3.5 updated pdf.

Other considerations:

1) More powerful and/or more uses for Turning. (See #4)

2) Some of the Knight's abilities seem very in keeping with the Paladin. Consider the Challenge (stylistically appropriate) or the bigger HD (a sign of the effects of their connection to the divine).

3) Given the Paladin's personal and unique connection to the divine, you might want to incorporate some of the "Exalted" type bonuses and benefits from BoED.

4) Paladins are often described in literature as having a presence or aura that is beneficial to their allies, and this is somewhat reflected in the game. You could expand on that by folding in the Aura abilities of the Marshall and/or Dragon Shaman classes. Perhaps they can even have a Fear aura that affects their foes. Perhaps they don't so much Turn undead as a cleric as their direct conduit to the divine imparts on them an aura that the undead find repellent.
 

Like you, I have been working through various classes to, inter alia, minimise the need to take prestige classes (I also give a feat every level which also helps).

My current version of the paladin is probably overpowered (but OK for my games) but here is the list of abilities in case you can draw some inspiration:

Aura of Good (Ex): The power of a paladin’s aura of good (see the detect good spell) is equal to her paladin level.
Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell.
Divine Challenge (Su): As a swift action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, you boldly confront an Evil enemy within sight and that enemy is surrounded by divine light of a shape and colour appropriate to your deity. You must then engage the target by either attacking it in melee or ending your turn adjacent to it in a square where the target is threatened by your melee weapon. If either condition is not met then the divine challenge ends and you also lose the use of the ability on the following round. The divine challenge ends at the beginning of your next turn when, of course, you may choose to use the ability again.
While marked by the divine challenge ability, your enemy takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls for any attack that does not include you as the target or, if the attack has a DC, the DC has a -2 penalty. Furthermore, it takes untyped Good-aligned damage equal to 1d6 plus your Cha modifier on the first time it makes an attack (including, inter alia, casting a spell) that doesn’t include you as a target before the beginning of your next turn. This damage increase to 2d6 plus your Cha bonus at 11th level and 3d6 plus your Cha bonus at 21st level.
A creature may only be subject to one divine challenge at any time.
Turn Undead (Su): You may turn undead as a cleric of the same level as your paladin level. You may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
Divine Grace (Su): At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.
Lay on Hands (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her paladin level x her Charisma bonus. A paladin may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesn’t have to use it all at once. Using lay on hands is a standard action.
Alternatively, a paladin can use any or all of this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. The paladin decides how many of her daily allotment of points to use as damage after successfully touching an undead creature.
Aura of Courage (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, you are immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally within 10 feet of you gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects. This ability functions while the paladin is conscious, but not if you are unconscious or dead.
Divine Health (Su): At 3rd level, you gain immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Divine Mount (Su): At 4th level, you gain a bonus to ride checks equal to your Cha bonus. In addition, any mount you ride gains a range of benefits:
• uses your saving throws in lieu of its own (including any benefit from Divine Grace);
• shares your Aura of Courage, Divine Health, Holy Shield and Holy Strike abilities; and
• gains temporary hit points equal to half your full normal hit point total.
These benefits last for up to one hour after you dismount but may only apply to a single mount at any time.
Holy Shield (Su): At 4th level, you gain a deflection bonus to your armour class equal to your Cha bonus. At 8th level, you gain the improved version of this ability where it now functions much as protection from evil spell in that it holds evil outsiders at bay. At 12th level, you gain the greater version and grant your protections to all allies within 2 squares.
Spells: Beginning at 4th level, you gain the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the paladin spell list. Otherwise, this is the same as the cleric’s ability to cast spells, including the option to spontaneously cast cure spells.
Your caster level is the same as your paladin level.
Holy Strike (Su): At 5th level, all attacks you make are treated as being Good-aligned. At 10th level, you gain a +1 sacred bonus to all attacks against Evil opponents and inflict +1d6 damage. At 15th level, you gain +2 sacred bonus to attacks against Evil opponents inflict +2d6 damage.
Paragon of Goodness (Su): At 20th level, your commitment to Good is so strong that your type changes to Outsider with the sub-type of Good (and the appropriate augmented type), you gain damage reduction 10/Evil and the benefits of a continual holy aura that may not be dispelled.
 

Here's a novel idea...what if, instead of being able to turn undead, you gave them the ability to treat any weapon they wielded as if it were enchanted with the Bane (Undead) property?

At higher levels (Lvl 5?) they'd gain Ghost Touch. At 10th, Holy. At 15th & 20th...who knows? Other powers that could work would be Disruption or Axiomatic...maybe even Brilliant Energy.

Its not as powerful at low levels, but it comes into its own over time, and is very in keeping with the martial flavor of the class.
 

Personally, I have always wanted to
a) give the paladin a bard's spell progression so that spells start at level 1 and use the spontaneous divine casting from Unearthed Arcana
b) redistribute the Paladin's spells over the 0-6 spell level range
c) have detect evil, lay hands, smite evil, and remove disease handled via spells
d) periodically give the Paladin a bonus feat from a specific list of bonus fighter and divine feats.
e) as with every 2+int class, give them +2 skill points per level (+8 at first level)
 

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