A party that comes out on the other side of T1-4 will be...

thedungeondelver

Adventurer

Just curious - I'm running a group through T1-4 THE TEMPLE OF ELEMENTAL EVIL and I was planning on dovetailing into S4 LOST CAVERNS OF TSOJCONTH and then of course into WG4 THE FORGOTTEN TEMPLE OF THARIZDUN. S4 is noted as being for characters 8 through 10, while WG4 being aimed at the (rather broad) levels 5 through 10.

I don't think this group'll be too powerful for either of those modules as long as I keep 'em turned up full blast.

Thoughts, fellow 1e'ers?

(I bring this up here because my group scrupulously checks on my forum for just such topics and I don't want to tip my hand!)

 

log in or register to remove this ad

13garth13

First Post
It's been awhile since I ran my group through T1-4 (and it took months and months and months.....I LOVED IT!! :) :) Of course, the atrociously high body count for the PCs did become a little discouraging for the players around about level three of the dungeon so that did mitigate my mitigate my fun a little....

I seem to recall that out of a party of four, one was 9th level, two were 10th and one was 11th level. But, as I said, that was YEARS ago, thus details are fuzzy to say the least... .... .....

Cheers,
Colin
 


Delta

First Post
Well, you've got Quasqueton's (in)famous analysis done by adding up all the monsters & treasures in classic modules (linked below). There is of course some good debate around it -- Q's trying to bolster a thesis that levelling times are fundamentally the same between 1E and 3E. Quasqueton calculates levels 7-10 at the end of T1-4. Posters like T. Foster document levels 6-7 in his own play.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...isons-ad-d1-b-ed-d-d-d3-updated-7-1-07-a.html
 
Last edited:

Grimstaff

Explorer
8-10 is a pretty safe bet. I've been involved in this a couple of times, once as player and once as DM and both times we were able to go strait into the Giant series.
 

thedungeondelver

Adventurer
Well, you've got Quasqueton's (in)famous analysis done by adding up all the monsters & treasures in classic modules (linked below). There is of course some good debate around it -- Q's trying to bolster a thesis that levelling times are fundamentally the same between 1E and 3E. Quasqueton calculates levels 7-10 at the end of T1-4. Posters like T. Foster document levels 6-7 in his own play.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...isons-ad-d1-b-ed-d-d-d3-updated-7-1-07-a.html


I've read that; quasqueton has...his opinion.
 

grodog

Adventurer
I think it's going to depend, in a large part, how thorough your players are as explorers Bill: ToEE, like the G and D modules, can be breezed through in such a way that you miss a LOT of big treasure items. I've never run T1-4 to completion: my players have always abandoned it somewhere between levels 2 and 3, in general. No one has ever gotten into Zuggtmoy's restricted sub-level, either, or gotten to the nodes, and few of the players have dug as deep as level 4.

I would guess that if you "finished" T1-4 pretty thoroughly that you'd be in the 6th-8th range if you were starting fresh with 1st level PCs in T1. That's assuming a fair amount of attrition, of course. If the players are good enough to survive straight through---and they're sufficiently thorough to find hidden loot well---then my hunch is that they'd be more in the 7th to 10th range coming out of ToEE, especially if they plumb the nodes in detail.
 

I would guess that if you "finished" T1-4 pretty thoroughly that you'd be in the 6th-8th range if you were starting fresh with 1st level PCs in T1.
It's been a while since I've run T1-4, but that sounds right, to me, if I remember correctly. PC attrition was a factor (i.e. there were some "lost" xps due to PC deaths).
 

thedungeondelver

Adventurer
I think it's going to depend, in a large part, how thorough your players are as explorers Bill: ToEE, like the G and D modules, can be breezed through in such a way that you miss a LOT of big treasure items.

No doubt; my read-through of the module has many places where I simply can't conceive of players finding the treasure just by looking for it (the earth elemental room is one: even with detect magic, they won't find the treasure cache - each is buried under six feet of earth).

I've never run T1-4 to completion: my players have always abandoned it somewhere between levels 2 and 3, in general. No one has ever gotten into Zuggtmoy's restricted sub-level, either, or gotten to the nodes, and few of the players have dug as deep as level 4.

Hopefully the nodes will keep them interested, but I fear this may happen, too. I think it's a danger inherent in all quests, be they pre-written modules or your own ("We're how powerful? Okay, why are we trying to track down and kill the Kobold King who's at best as strong as one of us was at 1st level? Let's hire an adventuring group to do it for us...")


I would guess that if you "finished" T1-4 pretty thoroughly that you'd be in the 6th-8th range if you were starting fresh with 1st level PCs in T1. That's assuming a fair amount of attrition, of course. If the players are good enough to survive straight through---and they're sufficiently thorough to find hidden loot well---then my hunch is that they'd be more in the 7th to 10th range coming out of ToEE, especially if they plumb the nodes in detail.

This seems to be the considered opinion; the group is around 4th level going in so I imagine they'll be a skoshe higher. It will leave me the excuse to crank WG4 and S4 up to 11, if nothing else.
 

I would suggest running WG4 The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun before S4 The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth. Unless these adventures are going to be heavily modified your party may end up perishing in S4 if they attempt it first. If they should be successful and complete nearly all of the encounters then WG4 will be kind of a pushover by the time you get to it.

Completing WG4 first will give the PC's a needed boost prior to S4 without making that adventure so easy. YMMV of course but I have run these several times and found that to be the case.
 

Quasqueton

First Post
There is of course some good debate around it -- Q's trying to bolster a thesis that levelling times are fundamentally the same between 1E and 3E.
I'm always amused when people around here claim to know my "real" motives for making a post. No, let me be honest: it does not amuse me to be told I have motives other than or different from or opposed to what I directly state. Where, exactly, do I so much as mention this "thesis"?

In fact, I stated directly, in that thread, "I expected slower AD&D1 advancement and faster D&D3 advancement, too."

As I stated in the thread, my AD&D1 games advanced levels slower than my D&D3 games. But doing the research and data collection showed me that the difference in advancement was because of my DMing/play style -- I gave less gp in treasure at first, and then gave no xp for gp in my later AD&D1 days.

I would really, really appreciate it if people would stop misrepresenting me. This is a major reason why I don't post here anymore. And it's also the major reason why I just stopped posting the research data.

Some people thought the information was interesting. But a vocal group seemed to take some kind of offense at the information.

I've read that; quasqueton has...his opinion.
This is hilarious. OK, no it's not.

You asked:
A party that comes out on the other side of T1-4 will be...
The module itself states directly:
Front cover: "Campaign Adventure for Character Levels 1-8"
and
Back cover: "...will take beginning characters from 1st all the way to 8th level and possibly beyond!"

The thread linked above completely supports that statement by the authors (E. Gary Gygax and Frank Mentzer), and shows exactly and precisely how this happens. Yet the data is disbelieved? You call the data my "opinion"?

So rather than take the authors' word for it, or another poster's hard data on it, you're asking for what, exactly?

Wow. What would people say about that thread if the data had contradicted what Gary Gygax said?

Quasqueton
 


Quasqueton

First Post
I would guess that if you "finished" T1-4 pretty thoroughly that you'd be in the 6th-8th range if you were starting fresh with 1st level PCs in T1. That's assuming a fair amount of attrition, of course. If the players are good enough to survive straight through---and they're sufficiently thorough to find hidden loot well---then my hunch is that they'd be more in the 7th to 10th range coming out of ToEE, especially if they plumb the nodes in detail.
This seems to be the considered opinion
Wait, what? I'm confused.

Oh, oh, I get it. I'm being joked with. Other people give their opinion/anecdotes of "7-10" and it's accepted as the "considered opinion". But my hard data saying "7-10" is dismissed as "his opinion".

OK, then. Never mind my rant above. I'm just the target of ironic humor. I'll shut up now.

Quasqueton
 

grodog

Adventurer
Quasqueton, I'm not aware of folks tea-leaves reading your intentions, but I've certainly enjoyed your analyses in the past, and would be happy to check them out again in the future, whether on T1-4 or other modules.
 

GQuail

Explorer
Quasqueton, I'm not aware of folks tea-leaves reading your intentions, but I've certainly enjoyed your analyses in the past, and would be happy to check them out again in the future, whether on T1-4 or other modules.

I may not be a "known name" but I'd like to say the same thing.

Quasqueton, I enjoyed reading your posts and I have noted your absence of late - I'd enjoy reading these threads in the future, and I'm sorry that you don't feel very inclined to post anymore.

In particular, while there was always going to be arguments about exactly what parts of the adventure a typical party was encountering (i.e. what hidden treasures they'd find and what optional fight they would endure) I thought your analysis of levelling times was an interesting one.
 

TerraDave

5ever, or until 2024
Quasqueton: I remain a huge fan of your analysis...

I've never run T1-4 to completion: my players have always abandoned it somewhere between levels 2 and 3, in general. No one has ever gotten into Zuggtmoy's restricted sub-level, either, or gotten to the nodes, and few of the players have dug as deep as level 4.

This was my first thought. Does anyone ever finish that thing? Would they want to use it all?

Slightly off topic, I did run Tsojcanth and Tharizdun in order....and it was good. S4 is already turned up to 11...I would only really, really worry about the end encouter, well, that and your campaign suddenly shifting to mythical greece or one of the other crazy things that can happen there.

WG4 is less gonzo...but does have three parts that make it easy to adjust. The first is the giant led army. This you can make harder through reinforcements, and just playing as written (they all gang up on the pcs at once...). The third, weak part, are some lesser dungeon encounters that could actually use some more zaz (even if they are from the Fiend Folio). Finally is the true lost temple. This is classic "challenge the player not the charecter", so if you just run as written, should be plenty dangerous.
 

grodog

Adventurer
Finally is the [WG4's] lost temple. This is classic "challenge the player not the charecter", so if you just run as written, should be plenty dangerous.

If you run it as written, most players will never plumb its depths, since they'll never find the juicy hidden parts and manage to win through to the final resting place of Tharizdun.
 
Last edited:

TerraDave

5ever, or until 2024
(The juicy hiden parts is what I was refering to, in case it wasn't clear).

My players...did a very good job of finding these. At points if was almost uncanny. Though once they got into it, I did scale back some of the "insta-death" elements.

Its very "old school", and rewards a certain kind of exploratory play. I think in our campaign, they had gotten hints that there was something more to the ziggurat then just some norkers bothering the gnomes. That alone might have been enough.
 

thedungeondelver

Adventurer

Well, Quas, thanks as always for your input - I was aware of what was written in the module but more keen to hear about individual experiences, since variations in play and so forth can produce a range of results as AD&D doesn't stick to a strict lockstep advancement system for all players across all classes and races.

Again, thanks.

 

thedungeondelver

Adventurer
(The juicy hiden parts is what I was refering to, in case it wasn't clear).

My players...did a very good job of finding these. At points if was almost uncanny. Though once they got into it, I did scale back some of the "insta-death" elements.

Its very "old school", and rewards a certain kind of exploratory play. I think in our campaign, they had gotten hints that there was something more to the ziggurat then just some norkers bothering the gnomes. That alone might have been enough.


Part of the lead-in from THE TEMPLE OF ELEMENTAL EVIL will be notes found in the temple indicating other cult(s) of elder elemental beings, with some vague indications towards the temple of Tharizdun, so the players will at least have some idea that something is amiss in the Lortmils. They're a nosy bunch so I'm not worried that they may not find the temple!
 

An Advertisement

Advertisement4

Top