A potential solution to the Hit Points debate

[Nethel]

Hey everyone, long time lurker who figured I'd throw my 2 copper towards the ongoing hit point debate going on in http://www.enworld.org/forum/new-ho.../324405-heat-battle-hit-point-loss-wound.html

As someone who narrates some hp loss, but not all, as physical damage, both sides have very valid points and concerns. The problem as I see it is that hit points are trying to fit too broad a role. They represent physical damage, but they also represent a character's skill/luck/morale/whatever else, and the discrepancy people have is the ratio of this representation.

An easy solution, as I see it, would be to simply divide a character's hp into two pools: Hit Points, which would now only represent physical harm, and another set of points that are the abstract measure of well-being, let's call it Fatigue as I can't think of a better term at the moment.

The advantages of this system would be pretty robust with the proper design behind it; Fatigue would replenish itself with rests and provide a dash of 4e-style longevity to a character without straining immersion too much. It also allows the warlord archetype to remain a flavorful choice without stepping on too many toes. You aren't “shouting wounds closed” with mundane healing (I understand that was never how it was intended but I've seen numerous people list that as their problem with the class in 4e), while still allowing your allies to be inspired and press on more than they would without you. Fatigue would also encourage skillful tactics and preparation- you're always going to take some damage in a fight, but if you do it smartly the impacts after the battle would be minimal and allow you to keep pressing forward.

Hit Points would remain fairly unchanged aside from their new role as purely physical damage. I feel a wound point system, while mechanically a good idea worth exploring in other systems, would run counter to D&DN's stated goal of a return to D&D's essence. Add in an optional rule that characters start taking hits to their performance when they reach the equivalent of Bloodied and I feel a lot of people would be pleased. Have HP only restored by magic, exceptional care, or time.

This system would give the developers a good deal of design space to play around with. Have some effects (such as the wyvern-poison example) effect HP regardless of Fatigue, while effects like fear spells and other mental attacks would primarily hit Fatigue. I'm sure the professionals could come up with even more interesting interplay between the two sets; some maneuvers available to a rogue-like character gaining different effects based of the target's fatigue for example. The ratio doesn't have to be consistent either; you can still keep the feel of “meaty” targets such as an ogre by giving them a good deal of HP but little fatigue, and this could even extend to players.

It would need some work and iteration to make it a polished system, but I feel the potential is there. Your thoughts?

 

[Derren]

Do it like Star Wars D20.

HP is luck, Con is physical.

When your HP runs out damage goes directly to Con, some attacks ignore HP (optional in 5E) and each point of con missing gives -1 to rolls.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Roger Musson suggested a similar idea in his article How to Lose Hit Points... and Survive in White Dwarf #15, published in 1979.

He uses 'hit points' for what you term Fatigue, and he uses 'wounds' to describe physical damage.

Definitions
(i) Hit points: these refer to energy and combat resources at a character's disposal, and not to physical damage. They are calculated for each character in the usual way. They are lost when a character has to exert himself to avoid injury, or when a character suffers some form of shock. This happens in normal combat, whenever an opponent scores a hit against a character in the usual way. Hits in combat are usually deemed to be blows coming sufficently close to require evasive action, rather than actually striking and wounding.

(ii) Wounds: when a character actually does suffer physical damage, he is wounded. The amount of wounding he can take is limited by his constitution points, which are assessed for each character in the usual way. Constitution points are lost whenever a blow is sufficently powerful to penetrate all a character's defences. When a character is wounded, the number of constitution points lost is equal to the normal damage roll for the attack, and at least the same number of hit points are lost at the same time (see below).​

Roger's reasoning for this is as follows, it's much like the arguments seen in the thread you linked:

The Advanced D&D Player's Handbook clearly states that hit points do not exclusively reflect physical damage, but also energy, combat ability, etc. And this is the crux of the problem, for such a definition just doesn't work. It tries to sum up two totally different things under one concept, and that is like trying to mix oil and water. They don't go. The party fighting minotaurs loses "abstract" hit points, but recovers them at the rate for healing wounds, while the fighter chained up in the dragon's cave loses "physical" hit points and survives because he has so many "abstract" hit points to lose.​

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

It's certainly a system with possibilities.

Star Wars Revised showed why letting routine attacks bypass vitality / fatigue is a BAD IDEA (TM).

You still have the issue, however, of:

Have some effects (such as the wyvern-poison example) effect HP regardless of Fatigue

Why would a wyvern's sting (or a snake's bite) automatically affect HP / wounds? Is it not possible to parry / dodge / block them in a manner consistent with losing just vitality / fatigue?

What about physical magic (e.g., acid arrows, force darts), etc.?

 

[B.T.]

I'm really not interested in over-complicating hit points. If you want a bunch of fiddly bits attached to them, make it an add-on to the game.

 

[Kinak]

Yeah, I always really liked this implementation.

As you point out, it'd make warlords way less controversial, while also making healing a little more interesting in practice. At least, it would separate out inspiration from miraculous healing (which could also be inspiring).

I wouldn't give out wound penalties, though. It's hard to justify (for most classes) but, for the best experience and the most drama, you actually want characters at their best right before the end. The next best option is just avoiding the death spiral of penalties.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[Nethel]

Why would a wyvern's sting (or a snake's bite) automatically affect HP / wounds? Is it not possible to parry / dodge / block them in a manner consistent with losing just vitality / fatigue?

What about physical magic (e.g., acid arrows, force darts), etc.?

Fair points, as I said, the system would take a bit of polish. I feel attacks being able to ignore fatigue in some circumstances would make for nice variety, but they should certainly be rare exceptions, not common at all. A little something to put the fear of god into the players every now and then

It makes a bit more sense with ongoing effects- you may be able to dodge most of the blast of a fireball and be pretty ok, but if there is an effect that directly sets you on fire, morale doesn't seem to come into play. It could certainly be a case where most of these effects couldn't be applied to you if you had a bit of fatigue buffer though.

And I personally agree with players not taking performance hits as they get wounded, it makes for better cinematic moments I feel, but it seems a common enough request that it should be supported as an optional rule. Especially if it's pretty simple to implement.

 

[thewok]

Honestly, for a default system, it's too much bookeeping. It's not a lot, and I think most people can handle it. But, for the default assumption in D&D, it's too much. It would be a good idea for a module, though.

 

[sheadunne]

I use my own system that works fine.

You gain hp as usual. Instead of negative hp you gain vitality equal to con score plus one a level. When you take vitality damage (usually after you run out of hp) you are shaken (-2 to all d20 rolls) and staggered (one action a round). The endurance feat gets rid of shaken and gives you +2 to vitality. The diehard feat removes staggered and gives you +2 to vitality. No more lying on the ground waiting to get healed. Vitality can only be healed by magical means or with extended bed rest. Hp is healed as usual. Healing vitality also heals hp at the same rate. At 0 vitality you are dead. Save or die spells target vitality directly, as do some undead attacks, while most other stuff targets hp first and then vitality.

 

[Morrus]

Wounds/Vitality (or whatever terms you choose) has been part of the d20 system for a long time, and of other games. I'm not so keen on it myself; I don't find it adds enjoyment to the game. But tastes vary!