A question about knocking a character out.

[ValhallaGH]

No way would I put up with a random bar-room brawler automatically making a character of mine unconscious with a single punch, regardless of my current hit points or abilities. Nor would I subject my players to such an indignity.

But a godly strong Ogre-sized character is not a "random bar-room brawler". He's the king of bar-room brawling, and he should be able to K.O. just about anyone under level 8, PC or not.

I completely agree that getting one-hit-dropped by a random dude in the bar is utterly ridiculous. Getting one-hit-dropped by the king of bar fights is only somewhat ridiculous; the ridiculousness stems from the presence of said king of bar fights in the same bar as the PCs, and him choosing to go after the drunk elf.

 

[Persiflage]

Thing is, the discussion here seems to hinge on whether or not it was appropriate for the OP to declare a character KO'd on the basis that they'd been punched in the face by someone with a high Strength. To resolve that issue, we have a combat system; indeed, I think it's fair to say that D&D is mostly a combat system - or series of conflict-resolution systems at least - with some other stuff thrown in for colour. To that extent, I think it's inappropriate to have a situation that is more-than-adequately covered by the rules decided on in an arbitrary manner by the DM.

The NPC doing the punching may well have been the King Of Bar Fights: in which case, he should be statted appropriately and have abilities that fit his lofty position. Maybe he was Power Attacking with his mighty strength and did enough damage to lay out the elf. Maybe he has some custom PrC that lets him double his damage against intoxicated opponents (or just when making unarmed strikes). Maybe he has a variant of Stunning Fist that allows him to render an opponent unconscious if he does a certain amount of damage to them when they're flat-footed... whatever. However, it seems from the tone of the OP's post that none of these things, or any variant on them, was applied or discussed: the DM just said "You got punched by someone really strong whilst you were drunk so now you're unconscious" without reference to any damage the character took.

The point is that it is unfair to say "You get hit in the face and fall unconscious" without invoking the rules when pretty much the entire point of the game is to resolve when, where and how people get beaten to a pulp (hacked to bits/reduced to ashes/vapourised/turned into a doorknob). My feeling is that if the DM can play Magical Princess Tea Party with something so fundamental as a straightforward combat, the players are flat-out wasting their time designing characters in the first place.

 

[HoboGod]

Sometimes the rules of combat get in the way. There's A LOT of rules for combat, especially when you just want to do something harmless and irrelevant. Sure, there are rules for how much damage you'd take in a cave in, but if you just want to tragically kill off one of your NPCs, do you really need to get rules involved? Combat rules are like the people who come to a party with wine and cheese samples when everyone is just trying to get wasted on jagermeister.

Situations you're talking about are exactly why we have DM screens. Next time, roll a series of dice and regardless of what you actually roll, tell him he just got punched out. It's not too unrealistic, to tell the truth, size large, some monk levels, Improved Natural Attack, Superior Unarmed Strike, and Monk's Belt. Some 6d6 unarmed stike is quite realistic for a CR 7 monster. Without adding strength bonus and power attack, a critical hit scores up to 72 damage. With high strength and power attack, that number pushes 100 damage. A 7th level barbarian with 18 Con has up to 112 hit points, if some player really wishes to do the math, then tell him it wouldn't matter have mattered because the alcohol has cut his tolerance for nonlethal damage by 75%.

 

[Cor_Malek]

Right, I want to throw it out there again: 3 monsters with similar strength are: a whale, an adult dragon and a kraken. One of few stronger is the Terrasque. Apparently a mass of muscles like that needs aquatic surrounding just to still be able to move. A hero hit in straight in his face by one of those gets KO'd, that'd be my final call as DM. I am willing to allow other endings in a clear combat situation, as there need to be mechanical constants. But a brawl, 32 str in your nose? Nighty-night!

The rules are to help the game, not the other way around. Especially since it'd seem that this call diffused a situation that otherwise could end up ugly and not very fun (PC-duels started in a tavern brawl rarely are).

 

[HoboGod]

Ehhh, I'm not sure it's fair to compare a gargantuan creature to a large creature simply because they have the same strength score, but I get what you're saying.

 

[radmod]

The chief problem that everyone, of course, realizes is that unless you're low level you generally won't be knocked out by one punch (even if you're flat-footed*). This conflicts with any semblance of realism (because D&D is soooo realistic). So how do you fix it? House rules seem like the logical choice, but they can be cumbersome. When do they apply?
Roleplaying the sitch can simply piss off your players but it's far easier.
It just reminds me of the mother's typical answer:
"He punches you in the face and you fall unconscious."
"What? How much damage did he do? How is it possible to knock out my 100hp. character with one punch?"
"Because I said so."

This is also similar to falling damage (which 3.5 'fixed' with the massive damage rule). I'm sure many people have seen the guy who intentionally jumps off the 200' cliff, gets up and walks off. Totally unrealistic, but within the rules.

 

[PolterGhost]

A couple things:

Unless you are low level to begin with, no, a single punch shouldn't knock you out. Why? Because the characters are already better than 80% of the world's people. You've got the hp to turn any would-be fatal blow into a glancing strike that scratches your armor or cuts a hole in your cloak. When you're attacked from behind and you never knew the blow was coming, your hp is representing your adventuring senses (a 'sixth' sense, perhaps) kicking in and helping you narrowly avoid the sword that almost pierced through your neck and out your armpit.

In this bar situation, if the other guy is just a regular brawler with a Warrior1 or 2 class, unless the elf in question was under level 5 or was a magic-user there's really no way to get knocked out by that. Even stupid characters can 'get in the zone' and use their extra hp to narrowly dodge an attack that normally would have floored them.

Really though, if you wanted to just do it for a bit of friendly roleplay then the elf in question (or his player, anyways) is just a dolt who can't accept a bit of lighthearted fun and instead wants the numbers to do everything for him. In my personal choice, I'd have made up stats on the fly and just start up a bar brawl if the player wanted to complain, so really your choice is just whatever you make of it.

 

[PolterGhost]

This is also similar to falling damage (which 3.5 'fixed' with the massive damage rule). I'm sure many people have seen the guy who intentionally jumps off the 200' cliff, gets up and walks off. Totally unrealistic, but within the rules.

Not really. Hp is a tool that represents many things. Luck, a danger sense, dodging near-death by the skin of your teeth, physical endurance and grit, etc. A character who CAN survive a 200 foot fall is likely such a high level that they have virtually surpassed 99% of their race in all heroism. Being that high of a level is the stuff of legends, where bards right their songs about you and people all over the land know your name (as well as your enemies.)

Sure, a normal person can't survive a fall that high, but a person of that level, a living legend and possibly revered as an immortal hero by the populace, can. What their hp represents for this purpose is an entirely different issue: Tree limbs to break your fall, a soft clearing to land in, being able to roll off the side of the cliff to weaken the force of the entire fall, just being that damned good, etc.

 

[radmod]

One cheesy, but easy way out for the DM is to say the PC is "completely at an opponent's mercy" because of his inebriation + surprise. Then it would qualify as a 'helpless' state. Since he's 'helpless', say goodnight, Gracie. (Of course, it would technically require a full round action to coup de grace him.)

Likewise, because of his inebriation he is staggering around, so he must be 'staggered'. Yeah, I know it doesn't work that way, but ...

 

[radmod]

Not really (unrealistic). (bunch of other good stuff)

Well, an 8th level FTR doesn't seem to be that high of a level, but with a 16 Con, max hp at first level, and average rolls he would have 72 hps. That's more than the average of max falling damage (20d6). Likewise, a Barb of 7th would have 70 hp.

This is one of the reasons I'm thinking an E6/E8 campaign could be interesting. A 6th or 8th level PC really is a hero. (However, that's getting way OT)