Paizo A question about Paizo/PF adventure design

[Lackofname]

I haven't gotten the chance to play PF, but I really enjoy the quality of Paizo's adventures, from their NPCs to the maps to the general aim (like Kingmaker's hexcrawling and nation building rules). But I notice one design habit that goes across many of the products, and that's why I'm here: i wanted to ask about a certain attitude in that adventure building that I don't understand.p

Why are there fights against monsters that pose no real threat?

Example: In The Last Outpost, the first encounter is 2 aquatic goblins, 5 HP each. The text says they flee if reduced to 1 HP.
The second encounter is with basically an aquatic gremlin, which has 7 hp.

These aren't even a speed bump, they're going to last a round. There's no risk here.

While you might say "oh well they are the first fights in an adventure, they're little more than warming up the dice", the same sort of thing happens later in the adventure and in others. Encounters in dungeons where it's something small, that doesn't do a lot of damage, that isn't going to last.

What's the thinking behind this? What does it accomplish, where's the benefit?

I can't help but feel like these are time wasters. Why go through the process of rolling initiative and all that jazz when it's going to die in a round, why have something pop out that's going to die in a round? It would be like in the movie Aliens if the space marines were jumped by some angry space-raccoons in between xenomorph interruptions.

 

[billd91]

I'd say there are a few possibilities.

1. In later stages of APs, there are sometimes fights where the PCs can totally dominate. I believe one rationale put forth by Paizo is that they want players to feel their PCs have become powerful - so they put in some fights against opponents that would have been difficult earlier in the AP.
2. There's also the idea of including what seems like a decent simulation of the environment or that will provide information about an environment and not just putting in encounters that are significant challenges. Not everything needs to be a challenge to be interesting or provide useful information for the players.
3. In this case, being possibly the first fight of the entire campaign, there may even be neophyte players who are just starting to learn and interact with the game system. A relatively easy fight gives them a chance to learn and gain some confidence without major risk.

 

[Retreater]

In the Pathfinder 2e adventure path I was just GMing, I found the opposite to be true: every fight was a harrowing life or death struggle. We didn't like that dynamic either.
I think part of the distaste for me comes from the "X number of encounters per level" paradigm present in all post-TSR D&D, meaning there are going to be countless pointless battles to advance in level so the GM can further the plot. By which time most players and GMs lose interest and the campaign ends by 8th level.

 

[TheSword]

Pathfinder APs used to be designed at a very low bar of difficulty so as not to exclude players. You certainly did not need to be optimized at all to be successful in a Paizo AP. That might have changed dramatically with 2e

I also think 1st edition Paizo APs dungeons were designed to be quite responsive. I regularly combined encounters both to speed up play and provide more challenge.

It is of course possible to just narrate some creatures behaviours rather than roll initiative. Sometimes that speed bump creature can be used as dungeon dressing or to make a point. Though even a 5hp goblin can shout a warning if it wins initiative.

 

[Retreater]

Pathfinder APs used to be designed at a very low bar of difficulty so as not to exclude players. You certainly did not need to be optimized at all to be successful in a Paizo AP. That might have changed dramatically with 2e

I also think 1st edition Paizo APs dungeons were designed to be quite responsive. I regularly combined encounters both to speed up play and provide more challenge.

It is of course possible to just narrate some creatures behaviours rather than roll initiative. Sometimes that speed bump creature can be used as dungeon dressing or to make a point. Though even a 5hp goblin can shout a warning if it wins initiative.

I have a good friend GMing the "Return of the Runelords" who is bemoaning the fact he can no longer challenge his party, which I think has just finished the third book in the series.

Combining encounters in PF2 is a quick way to a TPK, as my recent experiences described on this board attest.

 

[TheSword]

I have a good friend GMing the "Return of the Runelords" who is bemoaning the fact he can no longer challenge his party, which I think has just finished the third book in the series.

Combining encounters in PF2 is a quick way to a TPK, as my recent experiences described on this board attest.

Yes, it was interesting reading your posts detailing the changes.

My solution in my Runelords campaign was to reduce leveling to milestone and have the first adventure only give them two levels. Trying to complete Thistletop at level two is much harder! (detailed in my Runelords thread)

 

[Lackofname]

I think part of the distaste for me comes from the "X number of encounters per level" paradigm present in all post-TSR D&D, meaning there are going to be countless pointless battles to advance in level so the GM can further the plot. By which time most players and GMs lose interest and the campaign ends by 8th level.

This was what I was expecting, either "dungeon padding", or the intention is to go war of attrition on PCs to nickel-and-dime their resources. Which in my experience players just do not want to push ahead when they are low on resources.

I also suspect maybe it had something to do with 1e being where you could fight 50 skeletons at a brisk pace, but a lucky crit will kill you, or something like that. (If I understand that's how 1e was.)

I also think 1st edition Paizo APs dungeons were designed to be quite responsive. I regularly combined encounters both to speed up play and provide more challenge.

It is of course possible to just narrate some creatures behaviours rather than roll initiative. Sometimes that speed bump creature can be used as dungeon dressing or to make a point. Though even a 5hp goblin can shout a warning if it wins initiative.

Encounters combining is certainly a fair point. Although that then gets dicey with balance in the opposite direction.

It is of course possible to just narrate some creatures behaviours rather than roll initiative.

This was how I felt about those shallow fights. If the monster is just there for dungeon color/provide information/whatever, it's handwaved as "you see the raccoon and you splatter it, but it's easy to notice shimmering light coming from the hole the raccoon emeged from..."

I can also kind of understand wanting to let PCs strut a little, but IMO that ought to be a rare circumstance. I like to try that an encounter should be interesting. If it's not overtly lethal, then there's something else that's fun about it like a terrain element, something to make it exciting. No Orc and Pie circumstances, for ye olde ENworlders.

But, aside from the speedbump element, for me it's a matter of pacing. I want to keep things moving along briskly until there's a good reason to take up time.

 

[payn]

The first edition adventure paths are designed for 4 PCs using 20 point buy.

I have run many adventure paths and there are often some easy fights early on. Sometimes these intro modules are designed to get folks into the game. Sometimes the fights are super easy but the intent is to build atmosphere. Hard to say, but I will say I adjusted enemies often while running APs. Sometimes it was a mismatch challenge, sometimes it didnt logically make sense, sometimes it felt out of place for the campaign. I changed elements often but found the APs the be well written in general.

 

[CapnZapp]

Why are there fights against monsters that pose no real threat?

Example: In The Last Outpost, the first encounter is 2 aquatic goblins, 5 HP each. The text says they flee if reduced to 1 HP.
The second encounter is with basically an aquatic gremlin, which has 7 hp.

These aren't even a speed bump, they're going to last a round. There's no risk here.

While you might say "oh well they are the first fights in an adventure, they're little more than warming up the dice", the same sort of thing happens later in the adventure and in others. Encounters in dungeons where it's something small, that doesn't do a lot of damage, that isn't going to last.

What's the thinking behind this? What does it accomplish, where's the benefit?

I can't help but feel like these are time wasters. Why go through the process of rolling initiative and all that jazz when it's going to die in a round, why have something pop out that's going to die in a round? It would be like in the movie Aliens if the space marines were jumped by some angry space-raccoons in between xenomorph interruptions.

I would say there's a huge shift between PF1 and PF2.

Part of this I think is related to the two very different systems. PF1 is after all just a tweak on D&D 3rd edition, which attempts to a large degree to "simulate" a world, where monsters have "fair" statistics. A low level small and weak creature simply ends up having only 5 hit points in d20 systems. And "it makes sense" to have the world populated mostly by small and weak creatures.

So it's partly mechanics, and partly tradition.

PF2 is a huge break with both.

Monsters are LETHAL in PF2 (both in the absolute sense, but mostly in comparison to d20/PF1). They simply don't play by the rules (the rules that govern player characters). Instead there are tables suggesting what values a monster of a certain level should have, and the question of "how did the monster get there" is simply dismissed as irrelevant.

Also the pretense of simulating a world is dropped. 19 out of 20 fights in official PF2 APs are hard or harder. The number of fights designed to make the heroes shine, fights where the heroes clearly outclass the opponents are simply non-existant at low levels, rare at mid levels, and uncommon at high levels.

But your answer is that d20 did that.

The system did not meaningfully rein in players from creating über powerful characters, and especially NPCs were hosed by the need to play by the rules. At high level it is not uncommon to have to spend hours designing NPCs that will die in seconds at the player characters hand. (Or, more likely, spell).

PF2 has shut down that silliness for sure. As you can read from other replies, there's now a sense of longing back to the times where you could once in a while meet an enemy you could defeat with one arm tied behind your back... :-/

 

[CapnZapp]

Combining encounters in PF2 is a quick way to a TPK, as my recent experiences described on this board attest.

Yes. For those that doesn't know, Pathfinder 2 rates encounters by their xp budget.

An encounter worth 80 XP is considered "Moderate". (Or what Fifth Edition D&D would call "Deadly")
An encounter worth 120 XP is considered "Severe". (There is no standard encounter difficulty this hard in the 5E guidelines)
An encounter worth 160 XP is considered "Extreme". (Trust me, Paizo means it)

Note the scaling here.

Two regular normal encounters each considered "only" moderate will instantly jump up to extreme difficulty if combined.

I am not going into details as to why this happens, and what exceptions there might be. Let's just say that there is an effective ban on combining encounters.

This can be a huge inconvenience if you're used to your monsters acting rationally when threatened. You simply can't have your NPCs retreat to safer positions, consolidate their forces or seek out safety in numbers, not without careful thought, since the system pretty much makes any such upgraded encounter impossible for the characters to win.

(Again there are exceptions and strategies to use to pull this off, but none of them are obvious to a gamesmaster of Pathfinder 1 or dungeonmaster of 5th Edition)