A question about Paladins and killing.

[Kestrel]

New at 11...

10 acolytes slaughtered at St Peter's Church of the Merciful, when three baby trolls decided to devour them due to hunger. Intial reports say that the acolytes were attempting to redeem the trolls' souls when devoured.

We interviewed a local expert on trolls, Rick the Ranger, and his quote:

"They're trolls...trolls eat people"


In other news...a frog and scorpion drowned when the scorpion stung the frog who was carrying him in the middle of a river.

 

[kenobi65]

Franky, I'd be tempted to call shenanigans on the DM. What are babies doing radiating evil? Even an adult troll will only radiate faintly.

Read detect evil. If they're of evil alignment, they *will* detect as such, regardless of hit dice. Though, unless they're evil outsiders, undead, or servants of an evil deity (cleric, etc.), the aura is always "faint" until you get above 10 HD.

The issue here, as several have already suggested, is whether the evil of a troll is nature or nurture. Are they born evil? And, that's really a DM call.

In our campaigns, we've always said that killing baby monsters (excluding outsiders, though I can't say I've ever seen a baby demon) is an evil act; it's always possible that the monsters could grow up to reject their evil heritage.

 

[werk]

Be a real paladin, use them to feed the poor.

 

[DaveyJones]

(excluding outsiders, though I can't say I've ever seen a baby demon)

you've never met my neighbors' kids.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Blip...

Blip...

Blip...

Blip...

Ping!

Paladin smash!

We really need a Devoted Berserker feat that allows Paladin and Barbarian levels to stack for purposes of Smite Evil and Rage, and that allows Rage even as a Lawful Barbarian.

-Hyp.

 

[frankthedm]

but my Paladin is very uneasy about killing babies. Evil babies, sure, but babies. He's thinking about asking any higher ups in his church and government to see if something can be done, ala that order in Ptolus that redeems evil creatures.

What are your thoughts?

You should be uneasy. Being lawful good means you should never enjoy killing. That does not change the fact some things need to die to further the cause of Lawful Good. And though modernistic folks don’t like it, sometimes a merciful death is better that the alternative.

Are you saying you would not break the eggs of a dragon if the eggs detected as evil?

Now, in my book having a ‘baby’ that detects as evil is saying to the paladin, “Give this childe a merciful end” But given a game’s Morals will fluctuate based on the DM, I'd recommend asking for a Knowledge religion check to know what is "The Right Thing To Do." either that or say…

“We are all reasonable people here and I’ll abide by what you say is right and wrong in your game. Now simply tell me the lawful good thing to do here is so I can do it and we can get on with playing. If there are any checks involved with figuring out right and wrong, I’ll take 10.”

 

[Torm]

1) Precedent...is there a precedent for "evil" creatures being redeemable?

I cannot agree with this more. This should be the entire guiding answer.

So speaks Torm, God of Paladins.

 

[frankthedm]

The issue here, as several have already suggested, is whether the evil of a troll is nature or nurture. Are they born evil? And, that's really a DM call.

And that DM made the call when the babies detected as evil.

In our campaigns, we've always said that killing baby monsters (excluding outsiders, though I can't say I've ever seen a baby demon) is an evil act; it's always possible that the monsters could grow up to reject their evil heritage.

So do you change dragon alignment from "Always xxxx xxxx" to "Usually xxxx xxxx" ?

 

[Kestrel]

I agree with Frank. There's a difference between good roleplaying opportunities and a DM just laying "moral" traps to cause a paladin to fall.

 

[+5 Keyboard!]

These quandaries are what make paladins fun to have around. I ran a campaign once in which a cleric couldn't bring himself to kill a baby mountain troll. He brought him back and raised him to young adulthood with heavy indoctrination in the church. He became a kind of secret weapon for the church named Brother Clubber. Kind of a Quasimoto character (Hunchback of Notre Dame). The role-playing aspect and campaign development this provides shouldn't be ignored by your DM.

It ain't easy being a paragon of good. A paladin is usually expected to make the choice which is the most difficult. Ask yourself which is easier... killing the troll babies and moving on? Or taking them under your wing and raising them to be good virtuous creatures to follow in the ways of your principles? Perhaps cohorts in later years.

If your campaign is one that allows for mercy and kindness, then go that route. If it's a campaign that doesn't allow for these things - perhaps there is a state of war or the DM has deemed that trolls are not "usually" evil, but "always" evil instead - then killing them would be the proper thing to do.