A question for super science geeks!

[pbd]

Yes, but what doesn't burn is usually the useless stuff, like the manuals for the copiers in the basement. "What's toner?"

Brad

But if the destruction was that complete, if each and every community, college, university, engineering firm, research center, etc. was hit by a meteor, you wouldn't have humans left either. Or at most you would have a few that were rapidly dying off since no sunlight would be able to get to the planet anymore....

 

[abri]

Well I am a material scientist

Ceramics cannot be reworked. Once They've been sintered to their final shape the only thing you can change is breaking them in smaller pieces. You might still be able to find some interesting pieces: after all, any chunk of carbide (whatever shape it might me) will be an incredible tool for a medieval society.
Metals tends not to survive 2000 years, you might find some weird intact one in ruins of unniversity labs. As for super alloy, as soon as you remelt it you lose all their amazing properties (its not the composition, its the microstructure that make them better).
Polymers... Well some will still be around, but their utility is dubious, they really havent got good mechanical properties in general, I just don't see them being used much in a medieval society.

Now they will be exceptions and those will be the treasure the adventurers go after. Any carbide tools would probably be beyond masterwork (+3/+4 to skills) , some industrial cutting tools [most likely diamond/saphire/carbide coated] might still be around if lucky and could be cut (using magic or a lot of patience) into axes (i'd make them equivalent to +1 or make them naturally keen)
And artificial gemstones would be undistinguishible from regular one (nowadays you need an expert to spot an artifical ruby)

 

[the Jester]

I think a key question is, how complete was the destruction? If 90% of the humans died in the illithid attack, then there might indeed be only a few communities left. What's more, if some of the meteors were radioactive, the survivors might have had to flee their existing communities and rebuild elsewhere; ergo, no dump site nearby to mine. Given a few thousand years to rebuild, of course, the communities would spread, but the old ruins might sometimes have a reputation as cursed, sickness-inducing or otherwise forbidden.

 

[Switchblade]

Yes, but what doesn't burn is usually the useless stuff, like the manuals for the copiers in the basement. "What's toner?"

Brad

Don't count on it, in the Uni I went to the stuff deep in the basement most protected from anything were the physics and engineering books while all the popular arts books were in the easy to reach (and destroy) places.

 

[pbd]

I agree that the key is going to be how complete the initial destruction was. I guess I just think it will be harder to reduce our knowledge and technological base to near zero.

So, first take for example what the human race has achieved in the last 2,000 years in terms of technological advances. If we add to that having some troves on knowledge (texts, experts, etc.) and some remaining examples of technology (Cheyenne mountain would be very hard to crack), I think at this point in history it would be difficult for us to be reduced to a pre-industrial age state successfully for very long.

However, this line of the discussion quickly becomes philosophical and academic since the campaign setting can be anything the designer imagines...

So, sorry if I'm hijacking the thread.

Oh, and just for reference sake, I am a Ph.D. organic chemist (sorry, that becomes relevant so rarely)

 

[Rackhir]

A plague particularly one that lingers, might be a better ELE. If people who go into the old placed still die from a highly communicable disease, that would lock away the old knowledge much better than trying to destroy all of it. Since people would have to avoid the old places or die. Destroying all of the printed material simply isn't practical given the incredibly widespread distribution of books in developed countries.

 

[QuaziquestGM]

Or maybe they only think that the old places are cursed.

And maybe for a time they were....with untrained people breaking into surviving old places to scavenge relatively early on, surviving old places like Nuclear Power Plants and CDC labs...

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Specific questions about metals:

1) I live in the D/FW Metroplex, and I see aluminum (I think they're aluminum, anyways) poles & rods used for all kinds of street signs and other external architectural features, yet several have noted aluminum doesn't do well in the elements. What is the secret? If something like that survived, would it be suitable for making handles/poles for certain weapons?

2) I took a trip to Russia in 2005, and while in Moscow, I saw a tower/sculpture comemmorating their space program made of (or covered in) 1 years worth of Russia's titanium production in various polygonal panels. It looked fairly unweathered and permanent. If pieces of something like that survived, would those pieces be usable- perhaps mounted in a steel frame to make a shield, or abraded to hold an edge and make a dagger?

Rackhir
A plague particularly one that lingers, might be a better ELE.

A big part of my thought process on this campaign came from Isaac Asimov's Nightfall (both the short story and the posthumously expanded novel version).

The reason I chose the intentionallly redirected asteroids:

1) Early detection is unlikely. Therefore, the targets will be minimally prepared.

2) Effects will be immediate & global. Nobody has time to learn from the experiences of others or render aid- everybody is in deep trouble at the same time.

3) The scope of physical destruction would be massive, but could be targeted. The population centers get wiped out, but the countryside could be relatively unscathed. Yes, there would be some crop dieoff, but with the addition of magic, you'd still have a significant population for the Illithids to dominate & eat.

4) A plague like the 1918 Flu coupled with modern mass transit has ancillary effects I don't want. The Illithids want somebody leftover, and a virulent, drug-resistant plague with lots of possible vectors could make their victory pyrrhic- they conquer an empty world and lose their favorite food source. Plus, plagues don't cause damage to the infrastructure, which removes a lot of campaign motivations.

Ah, but remember each University (even small ones) will have a library chock full o' books and journals that will contain much of the knowledge we possess and professors and students that will know, at least to some degree, how to apply that knowledge.

1) Any University has to survive the Illithid Alpha strike. If its in a city bigger than 10,000 people (about the size of Manhattan, KS, home of Kansas State University, when school is not in session), it probably won't because the city would be targeted. Even if the school isn't struck directly, the meteorite impacts would doubtlessly start fires, possibly even igniting whatever is in the gas mains and other fuel pipelines. Most cities struck, even if not pulverized by the meteorite, would dissapear in the resultant conflagration.

2) Anyone surviving the alpha strike would be thinking short-term survival over long-term revival of civilization. With the world's nations infrastructures all reduced to rubble, including power plants, people would need to find ways to keep warm and cook food.

Books, valuable though they would be, would be lower priority for uses other than fuel than surviving structures or furniture. Paper burns so much more easily, and there is sooooo much of it. 99% of the books that survive the early years after Starfall (my name for the ELE) and remain in circulation would be what individuals could carry and protect themselves. The rest would be, as described, buried under tons of rubble- indeed a treasure worth risking all for. Like valuable, unmined minerals, there are probably more buried books surviving Starfall than anyone realizes- the trick is locating and recovering them (a major campaign feature).

(See Isaac Asimov's Nightfall.)

3) The more specialized the book, the rarer the academic (student or teacher) who understands its contents. When the ELE comes, how useful is the book on metallurgy to the typical expert in Pre-Shakespearean English literature (who, in all likelyhood, is on kitchen duty anyways)? What value would a materials scientist trying to help his community glean from a copy of the Book of Kells?

Dannyalcatraz
...but only the Inheritors of West Bouldershire would have a working plastics factory and plastics mine (actually, a pre-ELE dump site) in a 5000 mile radius.

Nitpicking on what may just be a typo - note that North America is about 3000 miles across. You are positing a circle 10,000 miles across - almost halfway around the Earth. Basically, you're saying that there isn't another such site in the entire hemisphere.

Its actually part typo and part just slinging out numbers. I haven't decided upon the planet's size just yet- 500 miles is probably more realistic.

However, what I meant to say was that the Inheritors of West Bouldershire had the only working plastics factory in that area, and ALSO happened to have a pre-ELE dump site from which they could easily get raw materials for it. Others may have dump sites, but may not be able to do much with the plastics they uncover...or given what happens with older landfills, may not even realize they have a pre-Starfall dump site.

pbd
I agree that the key is going to be how complete the initial destruction was. I guess I just think it will be harder to reduce our knowledge and technological base to near zero.
<snip some good points>
So, sorry if I'm hijacking the thread.

First, all contributions are welcome! I read a lot of subjects, but I'd rather get solid info from those who know their stuff than merely speculate from articles in PopSci or Nature, etc.

Undoubtedly, stuff is going to survive. The questions remain:

1) Who knows where it is and who of the survivors knows how to use it? Something stored in a salt mine may indeed survive the Starfall, but if the owners/commanders were in a population center, they're probably ash. Even in a hardened military structure, there will only be so many MREs, and only a few personnel would have any practical experience with long-term forgaging & farming. After a certain point, they'd probably have to move to where the food is (becoming well trained nomads...possibly descending to banditry like in David Brin's The Postman) or face starvation. After a bit more time, nobody in the company may be aware of the location of their former base of operations.

2) How much of it will be useful to the survivors who find it. It may be cool to possess a pre-Starfall Doomsday Device, but does it keep you & yours warm? Fed?

abriWell I am a material scientist
<snip some good points>

In no particular order...

I'm aware of the quality of artificial gemstones- I do jewelry as a hobby- but magic doesn't neccessarily play by the rules. Perhaps those stones would be better or worse as material components...or perhaps they'd even change the results outright (think of wild magic effects, or the AU/AE charts for special material components).

I wasn't so much thinking about reworking ceramics- I was thinking that someone finding zircon carbide shards might imbed them in the edge of a largeish piece of wood, like the shark-tooth swords you'd find in island/costal cultures, or using other ceramics to insulate a tower shield against a fiery breath weapon.

Thanks all, and lets keep the ideas coming! This is great stuff!

 

[apoptosis]

Nope, I'm thinking of titanium. It burns crazy in oxygen. However, like magnesium and aluminum, it can be difficult to light--unless you get it up to the sorts of temperatures at which you can forge it or cast it. Titanium, aluminum, and magnesium are all closely related elements, with very similar properties, including flammability.

To quote Wikipedia,

Actually magnesium (particularly finely powedered) pretty much lights on contact with oxygen and a little heat.

All those elements are very different form each other chemically.

Someone already said this...shouldve read the entire thread first.

 

[Switchblade]

3) The scope of physical destruction would be massive, but could be targeted. The population centers get wiped out, but the countryside could be relatively unscathed. Yes, there would be some crop dieoff, but with the addition of magic, you'd still have a significant population for the Illithids to dominate & eat.

4) A plague like the 1918 Flu coupled with modern mass transit has ancillary effects I don't want. The Illithids want somebody leftover, and a virulent, drug-resistant plague with lots of possible vectors could make their victory pyrrhic- they conquer an empty world and lose their favorite food source. Plus, plagues don't cause damage to the infrastructure, which removes a lot of campaign motivations.



1) Any University has to survive the Illithid Alpha strike. If its in a city bigger than 10,000 people (about the size of Manhattan, KS, home of Kansas State University, when school is not in session), it probably won't because the city would be targeted. Even if the school isn't struck directly, the meteorite impacts would doubtlessly start fires, possibly even igniting whatever is in the gas mains and other fuel pipelines. Most cities struck, even if not pulverized by the meteorite, would dissapear in the resultant conflagration.

2) Anyone surviving the alpha strike would be thinking short-term survival over long-term revival of civilization. With the world's nations infrastructures all reduced to rubble, including power plants, people would need to find ways to keep warm and cook food.

Books, valuable though they would be, would be lower priority for uses other than fuel than surviving structures or furniture. Paper burns so much more easily, and there is sooooo much of it. 99% of the books that survive the early years after Starfall (my name for the ELE) and remain in circulation would be what individuals could carry and protect themselves. The rest would be, as described, buried under tons of rubble- indeed a treasure worth risking all for. Like valuable, unmined minerals, there are probably more buried books surviving Starfall than anyone realizes- the trick is locating and recovering them (a major campaign feature).

(See Isaac Asimov's Nightfall.)

3) The more specialized the book, the rarer the academic (student or teacher) who understands its contents. When the ELE comes, how useful is the book on metallurgy to the typical expert in Pre-Shakespearean English literature (who, in all likelyhood, is on kitchen duty anyways)? What value would a materials scientist trying to help his community glean from a copy of the Book of Kells?

Firstly you are assuming every university is in a highly populated area - they aren't (most, yes, all no).

Two, you are expecting everyone with a scientific or technical background to be in the cities. Rather a lot of engineering firms and defence research offices seem to be in small villages strangely enough.

Thirdly, doing something once is difficult, repeating it is not. For example: the steam engine, key to the industrial revolution. To think that up took a genius. However the prinicple is really simple and once someone knows it this could be recreated from scratch from trial and error simply because you know it should work so the odd setback wouldn't cause someone to give up because it is percieved as imposible.

Even if all books were destroyed we wouldn't have to wait thousands of years to regain our tech from scratch. It is common knowlege of the basic prinicples of making iron into steal, steam engines and crude internal combustion engines. Within a generation or two we would still be back to the early 20th century technology. The more advanced stuff and medical knowlege may take longer to recover but give it 200 years and there you are.


If you have a ship full of telepathic mindflayers over a populace of non - psi humans though...

Picture this, a concerted magically boosted mindblast disigned to wipe the memories blank of the planet, leaving drooling idiots. An unexpected backlash stikes the mindflayers and they do not survive such an effort unscathed, preventing their dominance of the unresisting planet below.

With people reduced to near animalisic intelect civilisation collapses and there is no one to pass on an oral knowlege to the next generation, who have to develop almost from scratch.