a question on creatures

[Scott DeWar]

A player in my table top game wants a heavy war horse and cannot find it any where stat wise. He has seen that the bestiary has horse as a basic simple creature, but has also seen that there are 'advanced creature' templates. My question is this:

Does the heavy war horse have a specific entry or do I use the advanced creature template. It looks to me that the advanced creature : Horse would be for a paladin's warhorse, rather then a 'run of the mill' heavy warhorse.

If I am right on saying that the advanced template would apply to a Paladin's warhorse, then where do I find this creature's stats? was this an over sight on the beasties ?

Thank you in advance.
Scott DeWar

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

Morning, David!

Use the 'Horse' on pg 177 of the Bestiary. Give it the 'Advanced Simple' template and the extra qualities to make it heavy (per the description on that same page - see below) and then give it the Animal Companion qualities (pg 52 Core Rules) using the Paladin's level as Druid Level.


[sblock=Heavy Horse]Add Bite attack for 1d4, Hoof damage increases to 1d6.

Advanced Creature (CR +1)
Creatures with the advanced template are fiercer and more powerful than their ordinary cousins.
Quick Rules: +2 on all rolls (including damage rolls) and special ability DCs; +4 to AC and CMD; +2 hp/HD.
Rebuild Rules: AC increase natural armor by +2; Ability Scores +4 to all ability scores.[/sblock]

 

[Scott DeWar]

Ah, but here is where my problem lies:
Rebuild Rules: AC increase natural armor by +2; Ability Scores +4 to all ability scores.

under these rules the Intellegence raises from 2 to 6. that is no longer an animal. further more dreatures can be trained 3 tricks per Int point and so therefore there would be 18 tricks. A sentient heavy warhorse is what it would be as that pesky int being a 6. that sound like a paladin's warhorse. i know beter then to give a first level paly a warhorse at level 1.

I still think that a heavy war horse should be an animal. do I get to ignore the Int of 6? it would have a wisdom of 17 and a cha of 11 meaning it is quite willful. that I can see quite well for a battle horse. I just ahve this small problem with being able to talk. that is what a creature with an int of 6 is expected to do.

 

[pawsplay]

That's why you use the simple advanced template, not the rebuild rules.

 

[Will]

Animals are Int 2. Period.

So you give the horse a +4 Int, Int 6... which caps at 2.

 

[Scott DeWar]

That's why you use the simple advanced template, not the rebuild rules.

I get the feeling that you can use either the quick fix or the rebuild, as per what the situatin requiers. off the cuff: use the quickie. have the time, use the rebuild. +2 to all scores nets the same result as +4 to all attribues. I was under the impression that rebuild rules are still part of the simple advanced template.

Animals are Int 2. Period.

So you give the horse a +4 Int, Int 6... which caps at 2.

this makes more sense. more or less: ignore any result to the effects of an animal's int being raised above 2. it is a cap.

this is what I was thinking.

Any more comments or suggestions?

 

[freyar]

I get the feeling that you can use either the quick fix or the rebuild, as per what the situatin requiers. off the cuff: use the quickie. have the time, use the rebuild. +2 to all scores nets the same result as +4 to all attribues. I was under the impression that rebuild rules are still part of the simple advanced template.

In general you are right for use of the advanced template, though the rebuild and quick rules are a bit different from each other. However, for the case of the heavy horse, the Pathfinder rules specifically state (my bold emphasis added):

Heavy Horse: A heavy horse gains the advanced simple template. In addition, it also gains a bite attack that inflicts 1d4 damage, and its hoof damage increases to 1d6. As with a light horse, a heavy horse can be specifically trained for combat with the Handle Animal skill.

In this case, you would not use the rebuild rules even if you had all the time in the world.

 

[Scott DeWar]

So this is what I see thus far:

I went to the d20 pfrpg srd sight and under monster advancement i see simple templates. then from there the section on Advanced creatures it says to give a cr +1 and under those rebuild rules it says to give a +2 to AC and +4 to all ability scores, but I understand that since it is an animal I cap the Intellegence at 2. Do I understand what has been posted thus far?

 

[James Jacobs]

Simple templates are brand new, and there were a couple of unanticipated quirks with them as far as the rebuild rules go; the animals and INT bit is probably the biggest.

Anyway, yeah; a heavy war horse is a horse with the Advanced creature template. If you want to use the rebuild rules, don't apply the +4 bonus to the horse's INT score.

The preferred method remains using the quick rules, though, and that's exactly what the Bestiary suggests. Use a normal horse but increase its AC, hp, and give it a +2 bonus on every roll. Avoids touching the ability scores at all.

 

[coyote6]

Though by not changing Str, you also don't change carrying capacity -- so the heavy war horse can't haul a knight in full plate around any better than a regular horse can.