A reason why 4E is not as popular as it could have been

I know exactly zero people who wish they were playing an older version of D&D but play PF.
I know exactly zero people who play PF. Unfortunately, neither your statement nor mine means a thing in the greater scheme of things as our sample sizes are just too small.

Ok, so 4E is for drunk folks who don't really care which game they play. Noted. (Not my opinion, but that is what I read in yours)
1e works great for beer-based games as well. This is what I've learned after 30-odd years of playing in such.

More seriously, I found with 3e that I constantly had to pay more ongoing attention to my character sheet than I wanted to; I'd rather pay attention to the story and interactions but kept having to look up feats, abilities, change stats for buffs, etc. (or kept forgetting these things, whichever). With 1e, much of the time the character sheet is fire-and-forget, and only needs attention during treasury or training.

I'm not sure how 4e would be for this in ongiong play, but it gives the impression it'd be easier for a new player to dive into than 3e. However, this comes with a side effect: it seems to have a more limited shelf life before those same players drift away - and that's why it's not as popular as it could be.

Lan-"I'll have the beer, the rest of you can have the pretzels"-efan
 

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Why is 4e not as popular as it might have been? Because it wasn't properly min-maxed. Pleasing a certain segment of the fanbase has become a feat-tax.
Again, I'm not sure that 4E tried to please a "certain segment" of the fanbase so much as it tried to please too many.
 


Posting "I wish I could publish 4E stuff" on a message board does not constitute a huge amount in my opinion.

I'll leave the rest of the debate between the two of you, but I remember being very excited for Necromancer Games joining on.

This is a MASSIVE undercharacterization of Clark's emotional and time investment.

He worked closely with WotC (then Linnae Foster and Scott Rouse) on the GSL for months. He had several 4e items in pre production (including a 4e Tome of Horrors and an adventure path). He attempted to take a stab at a version of "old school" 4e.


I don't know if you think you're being fair Vyvyan or if you yourself are being intentionally obtuse.

But to claim that Clark posted "I wish I could publish stuff" on a message board as the whole of his investment is so wrong that it is not just wrong, it's foolish.


EDIT: I realize I should probably provide some evidence to actually convince you as well.
http://community.wizards.com/go/thr...ecromancer_Games_to_release_4E_adventure_path
http://www.enworld.org/forum/rpg-in...goes-4th-edition-planned-product-updates.html
http://grumblingrognard.blogspot.com/2009/03/4th-edition-classic-necromancer-games.html
http://www.wired.com/geekdad/2008/03/no-dd-4e-for-pa/
http://necromancergames.yuku.com/topic/9828


Other companies that were supporting 4e via the GSL:


Alluria Publishing
http://www.alluriapublishing.com

Destiny Games Publishing
http://www.worldofdestiny.com

Dias Ex Machina
http://www.diasexmachina.com

Dragon Roots Magazine
http://www.dragonroots.net

Dragondyne Publishing
http://www.dragondyne.com

Dragonfire Laser Crafts
http://www.dragonfiresigns.com

E.N. Publishing
http://www.enworld.org/index.php?page=wotbs

Expeditious Retreat Press
http://www.xrpshop.citymax.com/4E.html

Fat Dragon Games
http://www.fatdragongames.com

Fiery Dragon Productions
http://www.fierydragon.com

Goodman Games
http://www.goodman-games.com

Implement Games
http://implementgames.webs.com

The Inner Circle
http://www.icirclegames.com

Made by Wombat
http://www.madebywombat.com

Mongoose Publishing
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com

One Bad Egg
http://www.onebadegg.com

Reality Deviant Publications
http://www.realitydeviants.net

Silent7Seven Games
http://www.Silent7Seven.com

Tangent Games
http://www.tangent-games.com

Unicorn Rampant
http://unicornrampant.com

WorldWorksGames
http://www.worldworksgames.com

Some of them still are (GO Enworld!), some of them have left, and some of them are defunct. Add that to the companies that wanted to support 4e and chose not to due to the GSL, and I think ByronD has a fairly strong point.
 
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In my case, I played 4e for about three months, discovered it didn't suit my gaming tastes, and went back to 3.5e and even AD&D 2e for a brief time.

I'm sure this is probably a summary of what happened with a lot of other gamers out there. An significant portion problably only looked at 4e and made similar assumptions. Another portion were probably annoyed with WotC for various reason (early release, the destruction of "sacred cows", incompatibilty of the rules with previous editions, etc, etc, ad infinitum).

Currently, with D&D Essentials, many are probably seeing how WotC views their favorite game as just a commodity, rather than a product worthy of time investment.

All of these reasons, and more (with exceptions and other stuff not included in my analysis, but covered in this thread and in the blogosphere) point to 4e not being as popular as anticipated.

Who really knows?
Everytime somebody comes with an answer, another person chimes in with a counterpoint. And the dichotomy the "ideal game vs. the actual game" continues, sometimes escalating or devolving (depending on your point of view) into another skirmish or battle in the ongoing Edition War.

We'll probably see the same thing if and when 5e gets churned out.


Not that I'm completely cynical... ;)
 

From this it sounds to me like the only actual difference between us when it comes to world-building is that you're willing to do all the heavy lifting as you go along, where I want as much of it as possible (within reason) to be done and locked in before I drop the puck so I don't have to worry about it later.
I'm guessing that another difference is this - from reading your posts over the years, I get the impression that a lot of the dynamics for your group are driven by player/PC interaction.

In my group there is some of that, but I suspect a heavier burden of driving the action falls on me as GM. This is why I've taken to doing more of the heavy lifting as I go along - because even if I'd preplanned it all I'd need to tweak it to introduce dynamics into the game as we're all sitting around the table.

We still end up with rich deep worlds by campaign's end; they're just created in different ways and at different times before or within the campaign.
This sound right to me. I'd add: my gameworld will be richest in those aspects that the PCs have engaged with, and often pretty thin where it's been mostly offstage.

So in my Night's Dark Terror game, the details of the homesteads, the goblins strongholds, the temple on the island, and so on are fairly well known. And the histories of a lot of those PCs are pretty rich as well - Golthar, especially, has a much richer backstory in my game than in the module because of other stuff I've brought in (he is also Paldemar from H2 Thunderspire Labyrinth, for example).

But Kelven is just a dot on a map, and a ruler who gave the parties a horse with a richly decorated saddle and bridle but who couldn't produce more horses or much cash (the idea being that, post-Nerath, there is quite a bit of valuable loot still hanging around but comparatively little new production and trade - hence a shortage of cash and horses, but not of richly decorated horse tack). If the ruler actually had a name, I can't remember it! (oops) The logic of this is that the history and destiny of Nerath is a very important recurring theme in the game, whereas Kelven really is just a place to rest and get some new gear.

I've bit the bullet and just launched a party into Night's Dark Terror...let's see how this goes...I'm already in major rejigging mode both to make the map fit my world (I'd forgotten the adventure covers such a huge swath of territory; and yes this does count as world-building on the fly!) and to get rid of some of the needless little side quests e.g. rescuing Stephan...
Huzzah!

In my version of it, I tweaked quite a bit as well. I've dropped the Hutakaans (sp?) in favour of minotaurs (which fits with Thunderspire Labyrinth - and because there's a dwarf PC in the game, I early on introduced the idea that the dwarves were in fact once slaves of the minotaurs, and have adopted a lot of minotaur architecture and other cultural practices - every now and then I find a way to bring this up again, to push him on the issue of dwarven nationalism).

I used the goblins pretty much as written, and the goblin arc culminated with rescuing Stephan in the ruined city (I mixed some of the original maps and encounters with Thundesrpire Labyrinth stuff). There is a Thunderspire Labyrinth werewolf mystery which I meshed into the werewolf encounter in the module. I turned the burial mounds into one big tomb and added extra stuff as well, thereby introducing multiple levels - human burials from Nerath's conquest of the minotaur kingdom on top of an earlier layer of minotaur burials. This helped drive some of the Nerath/history stuff, some of the minotaur stuff, and also let me bring in an Orcus vs Raven Queen theme (I have a trio of Raven Queen cultists in the party).

I merged the gnollish components with the gnoll dungeon in Thunderspire Labyrinth. I'm planning to mix the Threshold stuff with the 3E module Speaker in Dreams, and have seeded that a bit with a Quasit encounter in Thunderspire Labyrinth and some hag encounters that are currently ongoing.

I've also toyed with the sequencing a bit - my players have done the gnolls but haven't been to Threshold yet, and at the moment I'm not sure whether they'll continue on to Threshold (where they have to make a payment to redeem some of the foresters who were taken as slaves - as per Thunderspire Labyrinth I had the goblins sell their prisoners onto some duergar, and the PCs entered into a redemption contract with those duergar) or whether they'll head into the Feywild first (which is an option that the hags have opened up).

Anyway, let us know how it goes! Hopefully better than last time . . .
 

In a similar way, it was determined-through-play in our 4e setting that it's currently fashionable for young ladies of means to wear jewelry made of extraordinarily flammable magnesium.
When I read some of your posts, I can't help feeling that my game takes fantasy far too seriously!

The trick is writing down the details you invent on the fly so you can refer to them later and come off like some hotshot god of continuity!
Too often, I rely on the assumption that if it's really important then the players will have written it down.

That used to work, too, but my best note-taking players have moved to England. Also, with DDI the players reprint their character sheets too often, and lose their notes.

Thus does my game achieve a verisimiludinous representation of the foibles of human memory and grasp upon historical events!

<snip discussion of gameworld creation>
Thanks for that. That's interesting.

I tend to use commerically created worlds - Greyhawk, Kara-Tur, Points of Light - and so have some basic questions like the outline of history, and religion and culture, settled for me. This also helps with the fiction/rules integration.

In the case of Greyhawk and Kara-Tur, shared genre conventions help me and the players get on the same page as to what the game will be about. In the case of Points of Light genre conventions play a role, but I also think the PHB does a good job of helping to get everyone on the same page about races, gods etc.

What I try and do before starting the campaign is review the history and myth (and perhaps politics, although politics is becoming increasinly less important in my games, in favour of myth, at least in part because myth survives contact with high level PCs better than politics) and look for points of tension and other sources of dynamism.

In the early stages of the campaign I try and seed this stuff, responding heavily to what the players have built into the background of their PCs. So in the Oriental Adventures game there will be spirits, dragons, daimyo etc. In the PoL game there is Orcus, undead, goblins with strange Bane-worshipping ceremonies, etc.

Then as the players pick up and run with this stuff, the campaign becomes driven more and more by responding to their choices. And I flesh out more of the details of history, myth, recent events by NPCs etc to respond to them and set up new situations.

I think I used to use NPCs - sort of in the way you describe - more than I now do. These days my NPCs tend to be plot devices (there's the werewolf, the amibitious young adventurer who stole an artefact he shouldn't have, etc), or place holders for aspects of myth or history (there's the Vecna worshipper, the Orcus cultist, the apprentice of the greates wizard of Nerath, etc). This hasn't been a deliberate decision - it's just something I've noticed on reflecting on my play. I've been thinking about trying to do a bit more with NPCs, but I find it hard to work with rich NPCs outside an urban setting. And my campaigns haven't been primarily urban since the mid-to-late 1990s.

Anyway, enough about me! Thanks again for the reply. (And sorry, still can't XP you yet.)
 

/snip for excellence

Some of them still are (GO Enworld!), some of them have left, and some of them are defunct. Add that to the companies that wanted to support 4e and chose not to due to the GSL, and I think ByronD has a fairly strong point.

Before the announcement of 4e, how many 3pp were producing D&D material?

Since we're talking about how companies have come and gone from under the 4e banner, shouldn't we compare to how many companies came and went from under the 3e banner?

Outside of pdf publishers, were there more than five companies still producing 3e material? Pretty much all the big boys had left long before 4e was announced - AEG, Mongoose, even Green Ronin was down to a couple of modules in the year before 4e released. Paizo had some great stuff, as did Goodman.

Anyone else? How many dozens of companies tried to publish for 3e only to drop out within a couple of years?

How is this any different than 4e under the GSL?
 


I completely, absolutely, disagree that it is a point of distinction. And here is why, I do everything you have described, on the fly, all the time in my 3E games.

<snip>

It is almost bothersome to me that your post presumes these are distinctions for your 4E over my 3E game. Partly because you seem to think I don't do them and partly because it surprising to me to hear people talk about these as something new they have gained in 4E.

<snip>

Yes, 4E is better at on the fly stuff. But improving 1 second to 1/2 second is not value added to me.

<snip>

For many people it "feels like a tactical mini game". While I agree that you can roleplay on top of the rules, I also agree that it, relatively speaking, feels more like a tactical mini game. And if the things you have described are really new additions that 4E offers you, then those of us already having these things in 3E are not going to see new value, but we are going to see the prices which have been paid.
I like simulation. I like imagining a cool wizard and then seeing him become expressed in an interactive way with the responsive environment. I love the "world-implementation".

<snip>

But a system-agnostic approach doesn't support a position of one system being better than another.
BryonD, I don't quite follow you here.

You are asserting that 3E is a better game for simulation than is 4e (unless I've radically misunderstood your posts in this and countless other threads). I've never disputed this - although my personal view is that Runequest, Classic Traveller and Rolemaster are in turn better at simulation than is 3E. (Probably GURPS and HERO as well, but I don't know the point-buy games so well. Am I right in thinking that you have a fondness for GURPS, or am I confusing you with another poster?)

You also frequently imply that only a simulationist game can give a truly rich roleplaying experience, which seems to generate an implication about the richness of the roleplaying experiences of those who play non-simulationist games. (I've frequently objected to this implication by inviting you to explain in what way games like HeroQuest or The Burning Wheel fail to give a rich roleplaying experience.) Heck, in the very post I'm responding to, you refer to me being "content" with my game.

Then when I post that 4e better supports non-simulationist play than does 3E, you object that this is bothersome to you because in some sense denigrating of your ability to GM on the fly? I don't feel the force of the objection because (i) I find it hard to see how 3E could be the best game both for simulationist and non-simulationist play, (ii) I didn't say anything about your ability to GM on the fly, and am happy to learn that your players enjoy it when you do it, (iii) like I said in my earlier post, "just in time" or "no myth" play is something different from GMing on the fly (although improvisation is part of it).

Of the various features of 4e that I identified as better supporting "no myth" play, I'll just come back to two. First, there are the encounter design and challenge-setting structures (DC tables, skill challenges, monster roles etc) that facilitate situation framing and provide a type of assurance-function for players. I imagine that your view is that you can do all this in 3E just as well, through a combination of common sense, the CR rules, knowing your PCs builds and so on.

If I'm right about this, fair enough. As I've posted in this very thread, I've done it in Rolemaster, relyingly similarly on intuitive judgements (and without CR, which Rolemaster doesn't have). I find that 4e supports it better which (as I said upthread) is why I've moved to 4e.

But what about the issue of overland travel, scouting and encounter pacing? What mechanic is there in the 3E rules that enables (i) encounters over multiple games days to fall within a single rest period's worth of resources, and (ii) that can make whether or not this happens turn in part on the players' decisions about scouting and the scouting abilities of their PCs, and (iii) can be resolved in one or a short series of dice rolls, and therefore (iv) will occupy minimum time at the game table? I don't know one. Nothing in the 3E PHB or DMG tells me how to resolve this situation without having a map of the area being moved through, and without actually resolving - using that map - the question of where the PCs go, how they try to get some sleep, what the terrain is like there, and then the GM using some sort of ad hoc process to adjudicate whether or not that sleep is restful enough (given that 3E doesn't have a "Good night's rest Static Action Table").
 

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