A Rekindled Glimmer of Hope

[GreyICE]

I never ran into that problem in 3E/3.5E, but it did happen sometimes in older editions with the unbalanced XP progression (My human ranger 6 had the same total XP as the Elf Fighter 5/Wizard 4)

Try any single monster encounter where the monster gets hit by Blinding Spittle or Glitterdust.

Or any dragon encounter where dragon gets hit with Shivering Touch.

Or any large group encounter where they get webbed and die.

Any Golem encounter where the golem got buried under mounds of druid summons and beaten to death.

Any encounter ever where the words "time stop" were uttered.

Etc.

Quite easy for a Wizard to trivialize many encounters. Fighters... not so much. They tended to whack things for pretty good damage, but they never really shined, even in combat. Outside of combat, welp.

 

[DMKastmaria]

The difference in philosophy is that pre-4E physical damage classes never "shined." They just did what they did, consistently. As people got more and more clever with spell usage, Wizards, Druids, and Clerics had more and more ways to shine, while physical classes got to ride in the back of the bus.

So, you never saw a pre 4e Fighter formulate and execute a devious plan of attack, whip out a powerful magic item, drink a potion of heroism and rock, roll well and deal out 30+ points of damage in a round, take a dragons breath weapon then cut it's head off, or...

Well, do anything? Really? I mean, Really Really?

I mean, I suppose, given your comments, that its a given that your DM was an unimaginative amateur and never let you attempt to disarm opponents, or shove them into a volcano, or let you pick up a barroom table and hurl it or... well, do anything not explicitly written in the rules.

But you seem to be also saying, that he wouldn't even let you do cool things that were at least strongly implied and often mentioned in those rules.

Darn. Sorry to hear that.

 

[Baron Von Mandrick]

The difference in philosophy is that pre-4E physical damage classes never "shined." They just did what they did, consistently. As people got more and more clever with spell usage, Wizards, Druids, and Clerics had more and more ways to shine, while physical classes got to ride in the back of the bus.

I kind of disagree. In AD&D, I was a fighter. There were a couple of different occasions where I held off many enemies while my wounded and weakened party mates made their escapes. I was able to do this because I had more hit points, and better armor. That was one of the benefits of being a fighter.

So it makes sense that the times that character shined were in instances that played to those strengths. If fighters can use their superior armor and hit points to their advantage, I don't see a problem with them shining in certain encounters.

The magic users in particular were vulnerable. If they got hit, they would be dead, unconscious, or close to dead because of their hp's and poor AC. Plus if they were casting when the enemy hit them they'd lose that spell and it wouldn't go off. The fighters taking out an enemy that had targeted the spell castors would have at least an equal share in the spotlight if the magic user got a killer spell off.

In the end I don't mind if some battles have one MVP in the party, as long as the chances for any of the members to be an MVP were balanced. If a Wizard is MVP 9 out of 10 encounters, then there's a problem. But I don't have a problem with different characters standing out at different times in different encounters.

 

[slobster]

It's been true in every D&D edition I've ever played, and heck every game of any type. Still, it is nice to see it as an explicit design guideline. Hopefully any character is able to shine as often as it is outshone.

The observation that you can compress combats into a few rounds without having to worry about whether that gives every character the chance to "contribute equally" is particularly interesting (and promising, D&D combat does tend to drag).

 

[Keldryn]

If you can resolve most combat encounters in 10 or 15 minutes and then move on with the game, then it matters a lot less whether the wizard or rogue is able to "do something interesting" every turn. Contributions outside of combat encounters are limited primarily by the players' imagination and creativity.

 

[Balesir]

So, you never saw a pre 4e Fighter formulate and execute a devious plan of attack, whip out a powerful magic item, drink a potion of heroism and rock, roll well and deal out 30+ points of damage in a round, take a dragons breath weapon then cut it's head off, or...

I played two fairly capable "fighter-types" in 3.x; one a two-weapon fighter (half-elf), and one a shifter barbarian with shifter-based prestige classes in Eberron. They could do some pretty neat stuff; the first survived being mobbed by a small army of skeletons, giving time for the druid to escape, until the wizard and cleric arrived to blow the undead away. The second could leap moderate rivers in a single bound, dance atop spinning flail traps and take the form of a wolf. But still his part in an encounter by level 10 consisted of engaging in a sideshow duel - maybe designed to keep the battle in a specific space by essentielly acting as bait - until the wizard and the cleric did the heavy lifting of wiping the encounter out or making it irrelevant or just simply bypassing it.

Fighters pre-4e could do some cool stuff - it's just that rendering an encounter a done deal in one fell swoop (either before or during the encounter) was not one of them.

I also played a bard character; even with that "sub-par" spellcaster my choices to just decide "OK, let's stop screwing around and end this" were hugely expanded compared to the previously described two.

I kind of disagree. In AD&D, I was a fighter. There were a couple of different occasions where I held off many enemies while my wounded and weakened party mates made their escapes. I was able to do this because I had more hit points, and better armor. That was one of the benefits of being a fighter.

If your character was wearing heavy armour, how did he escape? As I recall, platemail reduced speed to 6" - too slow to escape anything but green slime, unless the DM was arbitrarily kind...

Or maybe your fighter just died - a glorious death was always a viable option.

 

[NewJeffCT]

I played two fairly capable "fighter-types" in 3.x; one a two-weapon fighter (half-elf), and one a shifter barbarian with shifter-based prestige classes in Eberron. They could do some pretty neat stuff; the first survived being mobbed by a small army of skeletons, giving time for the druid to escape, until the wizard and cleric arrived to blow the undead away. The second could leap moderate rivers in a single bound, dance atop spinning flail traps and take the form of a wolf. But still his part in an encounter by level 10 consisted of engaging in a sideshow duel - maybe designed to keep the battle in a specific space by essentielly acting as bait - until the wizard and the cleric did the heavy lifting of wiping the encounter out or making it irrelevant or just simply bypassing it.

Fighters pre-4e could do some cool stuff - it's just that rendering an encounter a done deal in one fell swoop (either before or during the encounter) was not one of them.

I also played a bard character; even with that "sub-par" spellcaster my choices to just decide "OK, let's stop screwing around and end this" were hugely expanded compared to the previously described two.

If your character was wearing heavy armour, how did he escape? As I recall, platemail reduced speed to 6" - too slow to escape anything but green slime, unless the DM was arbitrarily kind...

Or maybe your fighter just died - a glorious death was always a viable option.

I had a hasted dwarf fighter annihilate my balor in one round with a full attack where he scored 3 critical hits and dealt out over 200 points of damage. (in case you were wondering, we make all of our "to hit" rolls on the table in front of everybody)

I can go on with several other examples as well, but that one came first in my head.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Heck, even 4E has this - there are many encounters where a Wizard shines, from cleaning out hordes of minions to disabling large groups. In another encounter a Ranger might step up to the plate and take out half a Solo's HP with dailies over 3 rounds while the rest of the party does the other half.

I think it's subtly different than "being very effective."

The examples Mearls gave weren't so much about being very effective, as they were about blowing through the encounter in one or two die rolls, even in some cases without spending any real resources.

That's a lot more than just "shining."

That's what 4e would call, in most situations, "unbalanced."

Think of why 4e mostly gets rid of flight or charm spells or save-or-die effects or whatever: it "skips encounters." Mearls is saying, "In 5e, it's OK to skip an encounter, or to deal with it without much fanfare."

It's saying: "If an entire encounter is solved with a single spell, that doesn't mean the spell is overpowered."

If you can resolve most combat encounters in 10 or 15 minutes and then move on with the game, then it matters a lot less whether the wizard or rogue is able to "do something interesting" every turn. Contributions outside of combat encounters are limited primarily by the players' imagination and creativity.

One more reason why wizards need not have at-will magic...but that's a different thread.

 

[hbarsquared]

What Kamikaze said.

The design tenet of adventure vs. encounter is not addressing just the "wizard and fighter in combat" issue. Shining does not necessarily mean being successful in a combat encounter.

It also encompasses the rogue sneaking past the guards, or the bard singing to the king, or the ranger finding shelter....

In the past, I don't think 3E/4E were designed to encourage this. I think they attempted to have all characters shine equally over the course of an encounter, combat-wise. Which may or may not have worked for some groups.

D&D Next is explicitly recognizing this will not be the goal. Characters will shine over the course of an adventure when they want to shine.

 

[Wiseblood]

If your character was wearing heavy armour, how did he escape? As I recall, platemail reduced speed to 6" - too slow to escape anything but green slime, unless the DM was arbitrarily kind...

Or maybe your fighter just died - a glorious death was always a viable option.

Remember that pre-3e the only penalty for heavy armor is speed you still get dex bonus. Chain mail armor was actually good.
And HPs were lower

Owning an encounter does not necessarily mean one-shotting the encounter.