A request for input on the FR Nations and their relative strength

[Gez]

Candlekeep 84, Great Rift 17 ?
I think you are exagerating the magic factor.

On the top of my head, I would have the hierarchy like that:

Halruaa
Thay
Waterdeep
The Phaerimm of Anauroch
Aglarond
The Shade
Calimsham
Mulhorand
Luruar
Var the Golden
Zhentil Keep / Zhentarim
Dambrath
Rashemen
Nimbral
Amn
Sembia
Dwarves of the Great Rift
Evermeet
Thesk
Cormyr
Larloch / Necropolis
Westgate / Night Masks
Tethyr
Baldur's Gate
Candlekeep
The United Peoples of the Moonshaes
Luiren
Chessenta
Menzoberranzan
Unther
Luskan
Chondath
Shadowdale
Raven's Bluff
Evereska
Hillsfar
Lantan (But I dislike Lantan for its krynnization of the Realms)

The city on the northeast side of the Moonsea)

?

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Yes I did. Thank you, Limper. Mulmaster it is.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Anauroch it is.
Thanks, Gez.

Can you'all take a wild stab at power levels, folks?
I appreciate any input.
Now, I realize how nebulous nations are in Faerun. (Heck, walk 2 miles from Waterdeep, and you're in the wilderness. Walk 1 mile from Shadowdale, and you're in contested territory.)
Nevertheless, I am still asking ... how would you rank them in power? On a power scale of 1 to 100 (or, 1 to 1000 if that is more appropriate) ?

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Gez, thanks for the list. But what power rankings would you give these countries? Just how much stronger is one than the other?
If you don't know (and I'm sure you don't ... I don't think anyone except Ed Greenwood does know) then try taking a stab in the dark.
What power ratings would you assign these countries?

 

[Aloïsius]

As far as I know, the phaerimm are now slaughtered, after their defeat against in the siege of Evereska. The are no more powerful than other wandering monsters, and the remaining will probably be slaughtered by the Shades.

I will say

1 Mulhorand 100 : if Unther is finally anexed, this will be the mastodont of the realms : strong unity, strong leadership, lots of magic (cleric do have 9 level spells, now...), HUGE population, and a natural sphere of influence that extend far to the east, south and west. Somewhat they are the successor of the Immaskari...
2 Strongest: Halruaa (90) : a nation of wizards is powerful thing, but they are essentially on a defensiv stance
2 ex-equo Strongest: Evermeet (90) : same as Halruaa, except they have been striken recently
3rd Strongest: Thay (85) : If they were more united, they will be number 2, probably (95)
#4: Calimsham (70) : the new master of this land is particularly ambitious, and ha has the means of his politic : huge population, heavy number of wizards.


Then Sembia, Waterdeep, Zhentil Keep+Zhentarim, the Shades, illithids, drow...

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Bumping this up. Still looking for replies!

 

[Gez]

Maybe we should establish a formulae.

Something like: Population * Military Modifier * Magic Modifier * Economic Modifier * Political Modifier * Racial Modifier

Modifiers would be:
Very Poor: 1
Poor: 2
Average: 3
Strong: 4
Very Strong: 5

Racial modifier would be based on average CR of the population's base races:
1/2 -- 1: 1
2 -- 4: 2
5 -- 9: 3
10 -- 16: 4
17 +: 5


Then we get huge numbers we could compare, and maybe reduce by a same factor to get a number on a 0 -- 100 scale.

As an example, Evermeet has 1658880 habs, can be considered very strong magically and strong militarily (excellent defensive fleet, but I'm dubious about their offensive troops, so I won't rate them as very strong) and poor economically (because of their "oh we are well only with ourselves and foreigners are evil" stance, they have few trade lines) and very poor politically (for the same reason, they have no allies).
1 658 880*4*5*2*1*1=66 355 200, or PF 66.

Waterdeep, on the other hand, has an enormously huge political and economical influence (and is quite gifted in the magical domain too, with Khelben, Laeral, the Watchful Order of Magist and Protectors, and the high proportion of high-level wizards among the nobles of Waterdeep (e.g., Maskar Wands).
1 347 840*4*5*5*5*1=673 920 000, or PF 670.

Luruar:
1 090 800*3*5*4*3*1=196 344 000, or PF 196.

Well, one may argue about my estimations of power in the various domains of influence. One may also argue that we should factor in a cultural factor, depending on the education of the population (a good point for Waterdeep and the Silver Marches, bad for Thesk).

I don't claim to be accurate, I'm just proposing a solution to systematize the PF calculation.

 

[Volaran]

As long as it has to be done, Gez's way seems pretty practical. You might even want to rate all the countries by various factors before one globbed together power factor.

There are also differences to consider when rating a country vs another type of organization.

For instance, Waterdeep and its controlled territiories have a population of 1 347 840, and its various areas of influence are those mentioned by Gez.

The Church of Cyric has approximately 250 000 worshippers, and around 12 000 clegry. At first, looking at just the populations, one might consider them less powerful, especially considering their lack of central authority other than Cyric.

However, even their description in Lords of Darkness mentions why they're so hard to combat. They are present in every city, and focus on the practice and propogation of murder, trechery and deception. You couldn't say the church was organized in cells, as I don't believe they have even that much cohesion.'

This makes for obvious weaknesses, since factions within the church plot as much against each other as they focus on outside enemies.

There are strengths too. Cyricists are willing to ally with and subjugate monsters to serve their purposes, they have ties to nearly every division of society virtually anywhere in the realms, and though they lack a unified leader, their purpose is more or less universal. The number is far less than many a power in the realms, but all of those followers are useful. Assassins, dark mages, corrupt merchants to fund the coffers, bored nobles who want more power.

Cities and countries are much more varied in the purposes of their citizens, from the plans of kings, to the concerns of farmers. They don't have the focus of organizations like the Cyricists, the Zhentarim, ect.

In terms of concrete numbers, I'm not sure how this would make for rating them, but they are things that should surely be considered.

 

[NewbyDM]

Thay & Mulhorand have the biggest potentials... by far!

Halruaa is powerfull, but we know so little about it, just as Nimbral, the phaerimm, Larloch & the shades.
All the last are only based on magical powers, while the former also have great military forces (i know of).

One other thing, Waterdeep (for example) boasts a lot of powerfull characters, BUT they ain't army people (Like Halaster), so when waterdeep is at war, they wouldn't help.. i guess

Also a big point would be if this power would be based on an attacking force or defensive?

Anyway, i would say: (pure power)

#1 Thay & Mulhorand
#3 Calimsham (numbers)
#4 Evermeet (forces & magic)
#5 Nimbral, the phaerimm, Larloch & the shades (difficult to rate)
#9 Unther (potential... just in a bad situation this moment )
#10 Zentharim+keep, waterdeep, Cormyr.

But this is what i think of it.

[EDIT] Gez
-----------------------------------------
Quote:
As an example, Evermeet has 1658880 habs, can be considered very strong magically and strong militarily (excellent defensive fleet, but I'm dubious about their offensive troops, so I won't rate them as very strong) and poor economically (because of their "oh we are well only with ourselves and foreigners are evil" stance, they have few trade lines) and very poor politically (for the same reason, they have no allies).
1 658 880*4*5*2*1*1=66 355 200, or PF 66.

Waterdeep, on the other hand, has an enormously huge political and economical influence (and is quite gifted in the magical domain too, with Khelben, Laeral, the Watchful Order of Magist and Protectors, and the high proportion of high-level wizards among the nobles of Waterdeep (e.g., Maskar Wands).
1 347 840*4*5*5*5*1=673 920 000, or PF 67.
-----------------------------------------
Waterdeep has a digit more

 

[Creamsteak]

I'll just post that I support this project, as I'm very interested in it's uses.

I really have no resources on the campaign setting, however, so I'm pretty useless.

Edena, for the IRR I used a simple system based on the different cities and provinces, but it wasn't completely accurate. If I had had the campaign setting book, I probably would have based my own system off raw population and a multiplier based on the training/technology/tactics/toughness of the people.

Mayhaps, for every 100,000 (or 10,000 depending on the population in this setting) = 1 PL, then multiplied by 1.5 if the power is (above average), 2.0 if the power is exceptional, 2.5 if the power is incredible (such as a high-magic region), or 3.0 if the power is absolutely overwhelming.

Have TFO or Janos contacted you concerning their list?