A Sample CR Comparison

[airwalkrr]

Many people think there are problems with the CR system and I agree. This thread is the first step in an approach to try to remedy the situation, although this is not a house rule thread per se, which is why I put it in D&D Rules. This is a discussion of the rules, its flaws and merits, as well as things that should be changed for the better. I present the following points regarding the existing CR system as I see it which are relavant to this conversation. Tell me whether you agree or disagree.

-Each monster or NPC typically has one basic function: battler, ambusher, magic user, special attack user, multiple threat.
-Monsters with levels in a PC class whose specialty falls outside the monster's basic fuction is usually subject to non-associated class levels.
-A level in a PC class is typically inherently better than progressing by Hit Dice.

These things in mind, observe the following exercise, which is an example of a typical D&D monster alongside a typical NPC fighter. Both are allegedly the same CR.

Tordek, 7th Level CR 7
Male dwarf fighter 7
LG Medium humanoid (dwarf)
Init +5; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Spot +1, Listen +1
Languages Common, Dwarven
AC 22, touch 11, flat-footed 21; Dodge
hp 59 (7 HD)
Resist stability (+4 against bull rush and trip)
Fort +9 (+11 against poison), Ref +4, Will +6; +2 on saves against spells and spell-like effects
Spd 20 ft. (4 squares)
Melee +1 dwarven waraxe +12/+7 (1d10+6/x3)
Ranged mwk composite longbow +9/+4 (1d8+3/x3)
Base Atk +7; Grp +10
Atk Options +1 on attacks against orcs and goblins, Cleave, Power Attack
Abilities Str 16, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 6
SQ stonecunning (PH 15)
Feats Cleave, DodgeB, Improved InitiativeB, Iron Will, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (dwarven waraxe)B, Weapon Specialization (dwarven waraxe)B
Skills Climb +6, Swim -1
Possessions +1 full plate, heavy steel shield, +1 dwarven waraxe, masterwork composite longbow (+3 Str bonus), +1 cloak of resistance, 1,900 gp

Hill Giant CR 7
CE Large giant
Init -1; Senses low-light vision; Spot +6, Listen +3
Languages Giant
AC 20, touch 8, flat-footed 20
hp 102 (12 HD)
Resist rock catching
Fort +12, Ref +3, Will +4
Spd 30 ft. (4 squares); base speed 40 ft.
Melee greatclub +16/+11 (2d8+10) or slam +15 (1d4+7)
Ranged rock +8 (2d6+7)
Base Atk +9; Grp +20
Atk Options Cleave, Power Attack
Abilities Str 25, Dex 8, Con 19, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7
Feats Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (greatclub)
Skills Climb +7, Jump +7, Listen +3, Spot +6
Possessions greatclub, 5 throwing rocks

Now bear with me for a second. I now present the differences between these two. Those in red are disadvantages of the hill giant. Those in blue are advantages of the hill giant.

+5 HD
+43 hp
-6 Init
-darkvision
+low-light vision
-1 language
+10 Spd
-2 AC
+2 BAB
+10 Grp
+4 Melee Atk
+7.5 Melee dmg
-1 Ranged Atk (-1 # atk)
+5.5 Ranged dmg
+5 Reach
+3 Fort
-1 Ref
-2 Will
+9 Str
-5 Dex
+3 Con
-4 Int
-2 Wis
+1 Cha
-2 feats
-5 skill points

Now if we go through this list and eliminate everything that really doesn't fit a COMBAT role, we end striking the following things:

-darkvision
+low-light vision
-1 language
-2 Wis
+1 Cha
-5 skill points
Note: I left Int in because it can be used as a means of deriving tactics although this is by no means an exact science, most DMs at least try to approximate it.

Hence, we are left with the following:

+5 HD
+43 hp
-6 Init
+10 Spd
-2 AC
+2 BAB
+10 Grp
+4 Melee Atk
+7.5 Melee dmg
-1 Ranged Atk (-1 # atk)
+5.5 Ranged dmg
+5 Reach
+3 Fort
-1 Ref
-2 Will
+9 Str
-5 Dex
+3 Con
-4 Int
-2 feats

Now the giant has 12 advantages over Tordek to Tordek's 8 advantages. But before we go out and say that means the hill giant has more advantages than Tordek, let's go in and look at these modifiers and give double weight to those that are particularly significant or particularly better and remove those that have a negligible effect.

+5 HD 0
This is significant, but only comes up for a small number of abilities so it probably doesn't deserve to be mentioned.

+43 hp ++
This generally means the hill giant has about twice the staying power of Tordek so this definitely deserves more weight.

-6 Init -
A significant disadvantage, but the hill giant is such a powerhouse that winning initiative is not vital. Now if the hill giant had a far superior modifier to Tordek, it might be worth double weight since the giant can inflict more pain, but it doesn't so it isn't.

+10 Spd +
Nice, but not a crucial factor usually.

-2 AC -
Could also be thought of as +2 bonus damage (+4 when two-handed) for power attack. Not immense though.

+2 BAB +
As above. Not immense.

+10 Grp +
This is pretty big, but our hill giant doesn't have improved grab or improved grapple so these situations will be rare. We'll let this one stay as is.

+4 Melee Atk +
Nice and hefty, but not quite devastating. Definitely an advantage but not overwhelming.

+7.5 Melee dmg +
Similar to above.

-1 Ranged Atk (-1 # atk) -
Having only one attack compared to Tordek's two is rotten, but ranged attacks is not where our hill giant specializes so it doesn't deserve double weight. We'll leave it in simply because Tordek does get an extra attack.

+5.5 Ranged dmg +
Given the rarity of heavy ranged damage this might deserve more weight, but since hill giants rarely rely on this attack form and because their attack bonus is so low, this advantage is mitigated to being a typical one and not worthy of more weight.

+5 Reach +
Significant, but Tordek could achieve the same with Enlarge Person.

+3 Fort 0
Not a big deal. Both are good at Fort saves and will pass with roughly the same frequency. We can probably toss this out as even being a benefit.

-1 Ref 0
Also not a big enough deal to deserve double weight as both are poor at Reflex. We can probably toss this out as it will rarely make a difference.

-2 Will 0
As above.

+9 Str +
A nice advantage, but most of it is already factored into its damage. So its added benefits (such as tripping, etc.) are not of huge importance.

-5 Dex 0
This is a bigger liability when you consider the ray penalty spell from Spell Compendium, but since it's not core, it's not a major liability. We can probably just toss this out since most of it is already accounted for in other stats.

+3 Con 0
The only benefit this confers that isn't already accounted for above is a better ability to forced march, which might come into play if the hill giant is chasing the dwarf, but probably not. So no more weight than normal. We can probably toss this one out as being a rare occurence of importance.

-4 Int -
The hill giant might not be smart enough to step out of a flanking position (being the equivalent intelligence of a retarded human) and may not recognize the advantages of parley. But such intelligence is not utterly incompetent.

-2 feats +
Tordek definitely has more flexibility because of this so it deserves to stay, but a couple feats can't grant a HUGE advantage so no added weight.

So our revised advantage/disadvantage list looks like this:

+5 HD +
+43 hp ++
-6 Init -
+10 Spd +
-2 AC -
+2 BAB +
+10 Grp +
+4 Melee Atk +
+7.5 Melee dmg +
-1 Ranged Atk (-1 # atk) -
+5.5 Ranged dmg +
+5 Reach +
-4 Int -
-2 feats +

So the hill giant now has 11 advantages to Tordek's 4. This is starting to look like a problem. Once we distill the things that are really significant, our hill giant is still a vastly superior opponent. So let's look at how they possibly arrived at the hill giant's CR.

Giant CRs increase by +1 for every four HD. So a hill giant gets +3 for his 12 HD. Plus, he is large, so that gives him +1. If we subtract the benefits of being large since we already gave him +1 for that, we have the following: +6 Str, +4 Con, -4 Int, -4 Cha, +7 natural armor, low-light vision, rock throwing, and rock catching. Low-light vision isn't worth much usually so we'll ignore it. The ability score boosts favor the monster's archetype (combat) so the penalties to Charisma and Intelligence are negligible for the most part. The Str and Con boosts are probably worth at least +1, while the natural armor is worth at least +1 as well. Also the rock throwing gives the giant a particularly painful form of ranged attack, so let's say it was worth a +1 as well. This gives us the CR 7 of our hill giant.

Just to delve into the "correction" area for a moment, there are three routes we could take here. One is that the hill giant is obviously under-CRed and needs to be "upped." The other is that Tordek is over-CRed and needs to be "lowered." The third is a mix of the two. But the main idea here is that I don't think the CRs are balanced at all.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Each monster or NPC typically has one basic function: battler, ambusher, magic user, special attack user, multiple threat.

Disagree. I don't pigeon-hole monsters/NPCs like that. It's fine to talk about their strengths, but not their 'function'.

Monsters with levels in a PC class whose specialty falls outside the monster's basic fuction is usually subject to non-associated class levels.

Disagree, mostly because this is a corollary to the first one. But, also the associativity of class levels has to do with how they improve the monster's strengths. I would not equate strengths with basic function, though there are obvious similarities. For example, levels in fighter will almost always be associative. Depending on the spells picked, in some cases I would call sorcerer associative even on a creature that relies on its fighting ability.

A level in a PC class is typically inherently better than progressing by Hit Dice.

Yes, although it can be inferior in some cases or equal in others (e.g. undead is worse and dragon is equal or better).

These things in mind, observe the following exercise, which is an example of a typical D&D monster alongside a typical NPC fighter. Both are allegedly the same CR.

This entire exercise is flawed from the get-go. CR's are not intended to be compared one with another. They are intended to be compared with a party of 4 PC's of equal level--specifically wizard, cleric, fighter, rogue. So, redo your analysis comparing the hill giant with stock PCs and the fighter with stock PCs and try to match up the two comparisons.

 

[Benimoto]

In my opinion, PC-type monsters are slightly weak for their CR simply because they typically grant far more treasure than monsters, and lowering their CR would make it even worse. I mean seriously, look at Tordek's possessions, compared to the hill giant's and try to tell me you should be giving that stuff to an even lower-level party.

CR is more that just what the name indicates. It's more than just a measure of what is an appropriate challenge in a single combat. It also has to include the broader question of what is an appropriate encounter, and a few more things factor into that (like treasure, as I mentioned) than just combat challenge.

 

[Fieari]

The problem basically comes from the fact that WotC put up two contradictory definitions for CR.

1. A creature of a given CR is a moderate challenge for a group of four PCs of that level
-AND-
2. An NPC of a given level has a CR equal to that level.

These two statements do not and cannot mesh up. I mean, look at any creature with a LA! Yes, the argument is that the LA represents abilities that are more valuble to a PC than an NPC... but that's the same with character classes too! And this shows itself in the analysis you just made.

If you follow the basic guideline of CR = 2/3 ECL, you tend to get much closer to the way things actually work. Usually; there are exceptions of course.

 

[shilsen]

The problem basically comes from the fact that WotC put up two contradictory definitions for CR.

1. A creature of a given CR is a moderate challenge for a group of four PCs of that level
-AND-
2. An NPC of a given level has a CR equal to that level.

These two statements do not and cannot mesh up.

I'm not seeing the contradiction. I think you may be interpreting "moderate challenge" otherwise than intended. In the standard CR system, a moderate challenge is one that the PCs can beat without any real chance of losing and which only sucks up some resources. A 7th lvl Ftr NPC is CR7 and is a moderate challenge for four 7th lvl PCs, since they can beat him handily, perhaps only losing some hit points and a spell or two. Where's the contradiction?

 

[Land Outcast]

Well, it always bugs the fact that the centaur character and the lvl 6 ranger character are of the same ECL but the ranger's CR 6 and the centaur is CR 3... what is that supposed to mean?
That one is more capable in direct combat than the other?
That while the Centaur would get used as a mop by a 4-lvl 4-men adventuring party the Ranger would prove a challenge to them?

 

[frankthedm]

You ignore 1900 gp worth of gear and expect the NPC to keep up with a monster?!

1. That remaining 1900 is there to customize the NPC and is more than enough to have several other weapons, potions to round out the NPC CR. Where's tordek's potions and other expendables? Barkskin, Haste, Invisibility? Oil of keen edge? When someone’s life is threatened and allies are being mowed down, they use those expendables. If this encounter is not in a dungeon where is dwarfs mount and lance? Dogs are what, 25gp each? Unless you don’t allow them, tanglefoot bags are a must for every NPC. Alchemist fire is another must since the person bathed in it must chose to loose an action to put it out or suffer a greater risk of catching on fire and putting all their stuff at risk If he has allies, and is expecting trouble, a smart foe shares his resources with his allies. Where are his caltrops?

2. NPCs that are built to challenge the party should be built to challenge the party. While it is gauche to snipe at PC weaknesses, unless the you expect the NPC to reliable kill a PC, taking cleave is almost throwing away a feat. Try quickdraw and carry a tripping weapon, Swim as a major skill? Try Ride or Handle Animal.

3. Core Shield builds are arguably weaker than 2 handed weapon builds. Make a dwarf or half orc barbarian and then compare the two.

 

[frankthedm]

Well, it always bugs the fact that the centaur character and the lvl 6 ranger character are of the same ECL but the ranger's CR 6 and the centaur is CR 3... what is that supposed to mean?
That one is more capable in direct combat than the other?
That while the Centaur would get used as a mop by a 4-lvl 4-men adventuring party the Ranger would prove a challenge to them?

A well built and well played NPC ranger should challenge a party more than an off the rack Centaur.

That the centaur has special abilities and ability score modifiers that would:

1. In a violent encounter with 3rd level PCs, it would use about 1/4th of their recourses. That is what determines CR

2. Be stronger once complementary character levels are taken and customized PC gear is selected. ECL is set expecting power gaming and character power is derived greatly from magical items. Simple as that.

3. Over the course of a campaign, the centaurs capabilities are strong enough that a player that chooses to play a core race is outshined / inferior to the centaur player if the ECL was set any lower.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Classed humanoid NPCs indeed have less raw muscle than CR equivalent monsters.

In my mind the major difference between a monster and a typical NPC is that a mid or high level NPC will have some minimal magic items and expendables for contigencies.

What happens to a CR 10 Hydra when you Entangle it or catch it in the open while the party is Flying? It dies of embarassment.

What happens to a 10th level NPC Fighter in the same situations? He drinks his Potion of Fly or Potion of Invisibility or pulls out his bow. And the battle continues.

 

[frankthedm]

Classed humanoid NPCs indeed have less raw muscle than CR equivalent monsters.

In my mind the major difference between a monster and a typical NPC is that a mid or high level NPC will have some minimal magic items and expendables for contigencies.

What happens to a CR 10 Hydra when you Entangle it or catch it in the open while the party is Flying? It dies of embarassment.

What happens to a 10th level NPC Fighter in the same situations? He drinks his Potion of Fly or Potion of Invisibility or pulls out his bow. And the battle continues.

Actually, because it is a hydra the party might run out of ammo. Most other ground-pounders though are hosed.

Monsters tend to charge in. NPCs use brains and tactics to the full extent thier mental attributes, skill points and experience allows.

The Hydra nails your front line with a brutal charge.

Tordek breaks Invisibilty as he takes a Hasted full attack on the wizard.


My Players once commented "We never see any NPC rogues."

I said "It looks like they are doing their job then!"