A Sample CR Comparison

[Land Outcast]

how they are likely to fare against level equivalent, higher level, or lower level PCs.

seconded.

 

[airwalkrr]

One thing to note here. A CR7 monster may have, on average, 2,600 gp of treasure, but that number is based on average rolls on the treasure table (3-5, pg. 52-53, DMG). A hill giant, rolling on the 7th lvl table, would have a 46% chance of having 1d3 minor magic items and a 3% chance of 1 medium magic item. The chances of the item(s) actually being usable by the giant are proportionately lower. An NPC, on the other hand, explicitly has its money sunk into equipment, which is specifically designed for its use. That makes a significant difference. Whether it completely bridges the gap you're pointing to or not is another matter, but I think your point above misrepresents the way monster treasure works vis-a-vis NPC equipment.

A DM is completely justified in just assigning a monster treasure that makes sense. Gygax did it.

 

[shilsen]

A DM is completely justified in just assigning a monster treasure that makes sense. Gygax did it.

A. Gygax doing something is irrelevant to a discussion about 3e rules.

B. The DM being able to assign whatever treasure he feels is a given, but that's not really helpful to a discussion about CR and the role equipment plays therein, isn't it?

 

[Nail]

IMO, The CR system works fine....as long as you remember the power of gear.



In airwalkrr's example of "Tordek vs. the Hill Giant", he's misplaced a substaintial portion of Tordek's wealth -- wealth that would be in the form of usable gear. This ignored gear substantially changes Todek's viability. In the Hill Giant's case, given that his gear is randomly (or "pseudo-randomly") determined, it's gear does not affect it's CR.

Put another way: If you optimize the Hill Giant's wealth, of course the Hill Giant's CR will change! (or, arguably, the EL of the encounter and the XP award muliplier, see 3.5e DMG page 39)

 

[airwalkrr]

In airwalkrr's example of "Tordek vs. the Hill Giant", he's misplaced a substaintial portion of Tordek's wealth

*Ahem* What exactly is misplaced and how is it substantial? I gave him very typical items for a fighter of his level and left 1,900 gp for other various minor items. To those of you who think 1,900 gp in consumables and other assorted items gives Tordek some incredible advantage that somehow shores up the vast disparity between the two, I'd like to see what items you are using. Without giving Tordek super-powerful consumables (like potion of shield of faith +5 and potion of barkskin +4, which he theoretically could afford), I don't see how that small bit of cash makes a difference. And on top of that, I can't justify Tordek deciding to use such expensive consumables (worth over 20% of his total wealth) on one encounter just because he is metagaming that "If I don't use these, I won't be a true CR 7 challenge." Besides that, the duration on those isn't forever. The PCs just run away and come back to fight him later when they have worn off.

Seriously. There is no way that 1,900 gp in customizable consummables makes Tordek as badass as a hill giant.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'm surprised to see so many people saying "the CR system works fine", because every six months or so we have a thread about how the CR system has so many flaws (often titled something like "The Remorhaz ate my party!!?!!"

On a more directly related issue - have you seen the work that Upper Krust did on revamping the whole CR system in order to take better account of stuff?

The first post in this thread http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=66470 has a link to the PDF which describes a revised CR system and how it plugs into a revised EL system too.

Cheers

 

[Land Outcast]

Random exercise: Go to the Kraken entry, don't look at it's CR. Look at it's abilities and stats... and say which CR would you give it to it. (and no, the CR isn't reduced because "he can't fight outside water"... a fight with a kraken will happen on water, don't tell me designers considered it viable to fight a kraken on a mountain or jungle... or
"the bushes at the side of the road start shaking *Spot check* you see a kraken skulking")

 

[frankthedm]

A DM is completely justified in just assigning a monster treasure that makes sense. Gygax did it.

If you are trying to refer to the bit from the 1E DMG, Gygax said the two ogres' treasure would not be in the form of an easy to carry gem worth XXXXgp, rather it would be in varing goods salvaged from raids and such totaling in value to XXXXgp.

Monsters have random treasure.

Classed NPCs have gear they cherry picked.