D&D 5E A Sense of Wonder in 5E

[pemerton]

BW delivers little "n", normal "narrative" in spades. I'm not sure it really hits Story Now according to the technical definition of the term. (I'd say it hits the practical definition of what Story Now ought to be, but that's another discussion.)

I think the technical definition of "story now" is not very good.

Ron Edwards, for example, classifies Dying Earth as a narrativist game - correctly, in my view - although it doesn't fit the technical definition - it is not about addressing a "theme" as Edwards' defines that term. The goal of play in Dying Earth is to set up situations in which you can utter your Vancian "tag line" and thereby produce mirth (of a cynical, jaded variety) in your fellow players. This is an aesthetic focus, not a thematic (in Edwards' sense) focus, but I still think it falls within the narrativist idea: by playing my PC, according to the rules of the game, I will get an experience that is pleasing in a literary/artistic/aesthetic fashion.

What sometimes puzzles me about some posters on these boards - and there's some of it at the moment on the Falling thread - is that they want to try and get the aesthetic experience without using the rules, or somehow regard playing by the rules as at odds with producing that experience. Maybe it's just my Forge-influenced prejudices, but I see this as a sign of having had one's spirit crushed by too many years of playing games with crappy rules (ie crappy relative to the play experience that you are looking for).

That said, BW is not perfect in its rules, and the designers seem to know as much (although they're obviously also proud of how strong it is in its design). The Adventure Burner, for example, has discussions of how to run fights against solitary antagonists that drives home how strong 4e's elite and solo monster design is in spite of the stunlock problem. And (unless I've missed it hidden in a trait somewhere) BW doesn't seem to have a mechanic whereby morale can be drawn upon to shrug off wounds: you can spend your own artha to do so, but there is nothing analogous to warlord healing (Command can reduce hesitation, but not allow overcoming penalties). Although in typing this up, it occurs to me: should I be getting that warlord vibe by having Command provide helping dice to a Health check to shrug off wounds?

 

[Crazy Jerome]

What sometimes puzzles me about some posters on these boards - and there's some of it at the moment on the Falling thread - is that they want to try and get the aesthetic experience without using the rules, or somehow regard playing by the rules as at odds with producing that experience. Maybe it's just my Forge-influenced prejudices, but I see this as a sign of having had one's spirit crushed by too many years of playing games with crappy rules (ie crappy relative to the play experience that you are looking for).

Forge theory address simulation and thinks that this covers immersion. I think that the theory never addresses what happens when immersion itself is the "creative agenda" as opposed to a byproduct of intentional, hard-core simulation. (And in fact, the more hard-core the simulation, the less immersion you are likely to get, and vice versa.)

Meanwhile, dedicated immersionists are convinced that immersion as the equivalent of a "creative agenda" is the only one that makes any kind of sense, with everything else either being second order, based on mistaken notions of how roleplaying works, or outright mendacious tomfoolery.

I don't think this is anywhere near the full extent of the disjunction (and I've been thinking about it for years), but there is a sense in which ordered, working mechanics (towards any Forge or GDS or other competing theory) are not entirely desirable to the immersionist. The more ordered, the more clear that the mechanics are mechanics, and not means towards the illusion that the immersionist seeks to maintain. Of course, you get the same thing on the other side, with terrible mechanics too--and obvioulsy on any mechanic that happens to push some particular button. (The "Drama" part of GDS I think got away with something here, by conflating means and goals such that people could talk on the surface with agreement, while pursuing something very different.)

The words are all in English, but the sentences they make don't add up to anything that makes sense to the other side.

That said, BW is not perfect in its rules, and the designers seem to know as much (although they're obviously also proud of how strong it is in its design). The Adventure Burner, for example, has discussions of how to run fights against solitary antagonists that drives home how strong 4e's elite and solo monster design is in spite of the stunlock problem. And (unless I've missed it hidden in a trait somewhere) BW doesn't seem to have a mechanic whereby morale can be drawn upon to shrug off wounds: you can spend your own artha to do so, but there is nothing analogous to warlord healing (Command can reduce hesitation, but not allow overcoming penalties). Although in typing this up, it occurs to me: should I be getting that warlord vibe by having Command provide helping dice to a Health check to shrug off wounds?

I think there are some traits that help shrug off damage in various situations, though I don't recall the names. No one in our group has ever used one, and BW also shares with 4E (IMHO) the aspect that you don't really have to care much about stuff not on the sheets (with opening new skills in BW being a huge exception to that). There are also some rules for "Shrug it Off" or something like that, in the damage sections. I know they are in BW Gold. Don't remember about the earlier versions. As with anything else, you could get helping dice to "Shrug it Off".

Short of going to a color scale change (e.g. heroic dragon versus mundane PCs), I think BW is so focused on numbers mattering that it would be difficult to replicate the solo experience against experienced characters. High, gray reflexes might do it. Set those at 6, and you've got a monster acting 4 times per volley, half of those actions being essentially unanswerable by anything but an avoid! (I think that would be too much, actually, but I haven't playtested anything like it.)

 

[pemerton]

it would be difficult to replicate the solo experience against experienced characters. High, gray reflexes might do it.

Good idea. (Of coures you're right about the need to handle with care.)

The more ordered, the more clear that the mechanics are mechanics, and not means towards the illusion that the immersionist seeks to maintain.

Yes, I get hints of that.

I think it was in this thread that we were talking about the way mechanics, by (eg) putting the players in a high-pressure, high-stakes situation, can generate an experience that captures/expresses the pressure the PCs are in - it's not necessarily a process model, but engenders something like a comparable emotional investment.

The current Rule-Of-Three thread has brought up a similar issue. Part of what produces what I would think of immersion in 4e combat is the need for the party to co-ordinate so as to unlock healing surges. The mechanical coordination - and, conversely, the mechanical implications of a PC going "solo" - captures some of the emotionat/thematic feel and stress of fighting as part of an adventuring party, reliant on one's comrades.

But it's clear that the "immersionists" don't experience this at all - mechanics don't produce in them the experience they are seeking. The closest I think I would have got to this experience is playing convention games (years ago now) that were either freeform or variations on Basic RP (Cthulhu, RQ, Elric etc). But one key feature of those games, for me, is that as a player I give myself over totally to the GM. There is basically no player agency other than the injection of colour (and the immersive experience is in part the internatlisation of a very rich sense of that colour).

This is fun (if sometimes exhausting) for a one-off convention game, but I couldn't imagine treating this as the RPGing experience. I want player agency - or, as GM, want to experience the creativite outcomes of my players exercising agency.

 

[Essenti]

The more ordered, the more clear that the mechanics are mechanics, and not means towards the illusion that the immersionist seeks to maintain. Of course, you get the same thing on the other side, with terrible mechanics too--and obvioulsy on any mechanic that happens to push some particular button. (The "Drama" part of GDS I think got away with something here, by conflating means and goals such that people could talk on the surface with agreement, while pursuing something very different.)

This post, I feel, is diving right into the murky waters that have gradually hidden the sense of wonder in D&D. It's not just ignorance that produces a sense of wonder. It is the ability to break free of the railings that the structured game mechanics are providing. Don't get me wrong, the mechanics themselves are not to blame. But the rigidity with which we treat these mechanics, in my opinion, is exactly what has slowly rendered invisible our sense of wonder.

It is still there, ready to be uncovered. It just takes more work and requires additional instruction in the DMG or some such to bring it back to the surface. D&D is essentially a game of improvisation with weirdly shaped dice thrown in to add uncertainty. As the mechanics get more and more robust--improvisation and the game itself becomes reliant on those weirdly shaped dice for this feeling of uncertainty.

I propose that it is uncertainty--rather than ignorance--which is the most influential sources of wonder! Anything that can basically break from the mechanics and take the story into a new direction is very likely to bring about that sense of wonder we are all looking for.

When a magic-user uses a charm person spell on a companion to counter the siren's song. Or when the warrior heroically steps in front of the dragon's breath blast, shield forward, diverting the blast around his companions. When the DM says "YES, and..." allowing a player to essentially break the game for the sake of the game, we are freed from the treadmill of powers, abilities, feats, skills, and so on.

These mechanics are great for describing the mundane things our characters can do, but the truly magnificent things come about when we are allowed to try to do things the game can't and shouldn't dictate to us. Those are moments of wonder. Embrace the fact that we are playing a game of make-believe, and the sense of wonder will return!