D&D 5E A simple questions for Power Gamers, Optimizers, and Min-Maxers.

dave2008

Legend
Then it wouldn't be D&D, and it'd be time to break out the torches & pitchforks, again.





...what is it with you and positing ideally balanced hypothetical systems, anyway?

Well, personally I think D&D does support both. Clearly people play it in a power gaming way, and I know from personal experience that others do not.

In fact, i would suggest that the game is set up for the casual player (like my group), but has another level of system mastery built in for the power gamer and optimizer set.
 

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smbakeresq

Explorer
Sorry, I guess I read in 'without DM intervention' and 'at the same time.' ;)

That's actually the key. I play with a group of older people and we have known each other for years, for example people know to roll their own concentration checks to maintain a spell and will just tell the DM if they fail with no supervision whatsoever. For us its all "the spirit of the thing." All of us started play at least with the 2e, so we just "get it" as it were.

The whole idea is that the DM is not "against" the players, he is merely the umpire and narrator. When I see AL or groups in stores too many do not realize this is the case, and it isn't explained to them.

There are tools all over the rulebooks to slow down the powergamers, but the rules are everywhere as opposed to a specific section. For example there was a debate here I was in from a powergamer that his level 14 Brb/Fighter GWM Polearm specialist "locked down" Tiamat is the Dragons adventure. I asked how was that possible considering "Tiamat has greater reach on all physical attacks, breathe weapons, and flying, was you DM not using those?" To me that's a DM fail. When I ran it with a 4 person group I had to reason Tiamat is so massive that she couldn't attack the same character with more than 2 attacks due to lack of "room."

I think Wizards sort of feels the same way, in Storm Kings Thunder they send a few Storm Giants to help out



As far as play though, you have to get a feel for your group. The hardest to DM are the power gamers, since they also believe that the DM isn't the final word, the rules are, and any anything against the way they read the ruleset is you screwing them. They are LE in essence.

Most kids are power gamers but easy to deal with, they are motivated to be great heroes and not "beat the DM." They just see Legolas kill everything and not take a point of damage and think they can do that at first level. Its not in any way mean spirited or intentional. I had to explain to my kids that you cant shoot 3 arrows at once at the start and the monsters get attacks too and are not all terrible at it.


Veteran gamers are generally the easiest, they get that its a story and just say sure, some relish being put in crazy situations. I would suggest everyone who wants to DM get a copy of the old adventure A4, In the Dungeons of the Slave Lords. The characters start out in a dungeon with no equipment or spells under a volcanic island, which of course starts to erupt and shake the island to motivate the characters to move. I thought it was great the first time I played it, and still think its a great idea to really see what your players got. This would work even better today with cantrips and spell recovery.

In the A1 module, Slave Pits of the Undercity, you can see how small monsters can be a great challenge if played to their intelligence. For example, orcs with a bellows used as a flamethrower? Sign me up!

The most dangerous are the ones that are intelligent with no need to sleep, they have %50 more time on their hands then the characters to work around the clock, so don't be afraid to use intricate plans and traps.

As a DM don't be afraid of the power gamers, you can always power game them right back, using every rule in the book.
 

Rhenny

Adventurer
The hardest to DM are the power gamers, since they also believe that the DM isn't the final word, the rules are, and any anything against the way they read the ruleset is you screwing them. They are LE in essence...

I love this.

Sometimes it is that very fact that makes it a bore or a chore to DM those types of players. If they are that fixated on rules, they should play a board game.

I think I'm getting too old for 100% rules centric game play.
 

It is only a problem when the group uses a ruleset that doesn't fit their style. Using a system that rewards build optimization and then not optimizing and complaining that someone optimizes is like using screwdrivers to drive nails and get offended when someone uses it to drive a screw instead.
If the group is not interested in playing the optimization game, there's a lot of systems that cater to this.
The game systems that have the most potential for optimization are often the ones that are not designed with optimization in mind, since those tend to have balance holes big enough to drive a truck through.

The only systems that are close to impossible to optimize in are extremely rules-light and narrative-centered, but if you want to play a system with detailed rules then it will invariably have tools for optimizers to work with.
 

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