A statistics question

[Mr Jack]

Three points are being missed here:

1. Any decent dex monk build will include Weapon Finesse, so the str monks aren't actually any more likely to hit.

2. The monks big strength in combat is mobility, and that relies on Tumble, and Tumble is dex based. Particularly at lower (< 7th) levels the extra bonus to Tumble makes a difference.

3. The str bonus diminishes with respect to the damage dice as the monk increases in level. Whereas as a first level monk is only trotting out d6+str mod, by 8th they're doing 2d8+str mod (assuming Improved Natural Attack, and what combat monk build is not going to take that?) and it rocks on up from there. This effect is not repeated with AC, because AC only matters relative to the hit bonus.

I would say, yes, a str monk will be better in a straight toe-to-toe fight but why would use a monk for such a build? They'll be royally owned by any competent fighter or barbarian build. The Monk's strength lies in tactical ability and Mage Slaying, and for that you want to dance past the defenders with the greatest of ease.

 

[Legildur]

1. Any decent dex monk build will include Weapon Finesse, so the str monks aren't actually any more likely to hit.

You are completely right. But as soon as you start introducing new variables, like feats, you need to start analysing non-quantifiable variables. Example, what feat would the Str based monk take in place of Wpn Finesse? Typically it would be Improved Grapple, or something else that clouds the analysis as it (often) provides tactical options rather than directly affecting damage output.

 

[Mr Jack]

You are completely right. But as soon as you start introducing new variables, like feats, you need to start analysing non-quantifiable variables. Example, what feat would the Str based monk take in place of Wpn Finesse? Typically it would be Improved Grapple, or something else that clouds the analysis as it (often) provides tactical options rather than directly affecting damage output.

It's a fair point, and does demonstrate why these numerical comparisons so rarely tell meaningful stories. With Monks in particular that kind of toe-to-toe combat is not where they show their true colours.

 

[Agemegos]

These opponents expect to do 2.925/rd each to the Dex monk (for a total of 8.775), and 3.25/rd each to the Str monk (for a total of 9.75 hp/rd). The Dex monk still survives to round 3, dealing 9.075 points of damage, but the Str monk does not, dealing only 7.8 points of damage.

You are rounding off to whole turns, which is not a valid thing to do. The monks' expected survival times include fractional turns, which you ought to calculate.

Also, you are tacitly assuming that the monks always win initiative over all their opponents, which is not valid either.

 

[Agemegos]

1. Any decent dex monk build will include Weapon Finesse, so the str monks aren't actually any more likely to hit.

Instead they have an extra feat to devote to something useful that the DEX-first monk wasted playing catch-up. And they still do more damage.

2. The monks big strength in combat is mobility, and that relies on Tumble, and Tumble is dex based. Particularly at lower (< 7th) levels the extra bonus to Tumble makes a difference.

If Tumble is that important, the Strength-first monk takes a feat that raises Trumble in the slot where the DEXy build got 'weapon finesse'.

3. The str bonus diminishes with respect to the damage dice as the monk increases in level.

I mentioned that several times upthread.

I would say, yes, a str monk will be better in a straight toe-to-toe fight but why would use a monk for such a build? They'll be royally owned by any competent fighter or barbarian build.

Exactly so. But the OP asked about which build was better in combat. If you think that is a silly question, you think it is a silly question. But that doesn't make my answer wrong.

 

[Mr Jack]

If Tumble is that important, the Strength-first monk takes a feat that raises Trumble in the slot where the DEXy build got 'weapon finesse'.

That's a fair point. The trouble, however, is that such a feat becomes wasted when you reach a sufficent level that your tumble is high enough that it always passes. Weapon Finesse carries on being useful.

I mentioned that several times upthread.

Apologies.

Exactly so. But the OP asked about which build was better in combat. If you think that is a silly question, you think it is a silly question. But that doesn't make my answer wrong.

I think you've misunderstood my point. Combat in D&D is frequently about more than standing in front of your foe and trading blows. Monks, in my experience, excel in their tactical versatility. It is not their ability to stand and deliver damage but their ability to move suddenly to different and tactically more important positions on the battle field that makes them scary foes.

 

[jeffh]

Three points are being missed here:

1. Any decent dex monk build will include Weapon Finesse, so the str monks aren't actually any more likely to hit.

Not until third level at the soonest - a first level monk doesn't qualify for it. (Annoying how the characters who want that feat the most are uniformly unable to start with it.)

3. The str bonus diminishes with respect to the damage dice as the monk increases in level.

Nah. The damage dice keep up with the other mods, which they don't for most classes, but they're both gonna be important all the way up.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

To those late to the thread, I'm trying to avoid adding in the wildcard of Feats since there are so many out there that it would send the discussion into some crazy spaces. For instance, I currently favor taking polearm feats from DCv1 with a Dex build monk. Positioned near the center of the line with AoOs galore, the monk controls a large area with his polearm, daring foes to close to HTH range...and risking AoOs from the various warrior types in his party.

I'm trying to keep this simple.

The damage dice keep up with the other mods, which they don't for most classes, but they're both gonna be important all the way up.

I think what he meant was that Str bonus to the monk's damage will dissapear in the noise of the ever increasing dice of damage the monk will do. +2 Str bonus is big when attached to 1d6 damage, but its importance diminishes when the base damage is 2d10.

You are rounding off to whole turns, which is not a valid thing to do. The monks' expected survival times include fractional turns, which you ought to calculate.

I'm not rounding.

By taking 9.075 points of damage per round, the Str Monk (who has 18hp) takes an expected 18.15 hp of damage by round 2, dropping him.

The Dex monk with the same HP takes only 17.55 hp of damage in the same time- he survives to round 3 just barely.

Also, you are tacitly assuming that the monks always win initiative over all their opponents, which is not valid either.

Like I said upthread, I'm assuming simultaneous initiative to keep the math simple- everyone gets to do their expected damage every turn. That way I don't have to figure out if/when the Str monk drops a foe during the round, thus changing his foes' expected damage output. Unfair to the Str monk? Perhaps. But if we go the other route- foes first- the Str monk still drops in round 2, the Dex monk in round 3.

Besides- do we really want to figure in things like the Dex Monk's 5% better initiative odds? I mean, feel free to adjust the equations, but I'm not going to try!

Also, as a correction:

The trend is obvious- the Str monk is in trouble if he is facing a number of opponents that are better equipped (as opposed to being more skilled or competent) combatants.

Thus, if your DM has a tendency to throw NPC “mooks” with Power Attack and big weapons, at the party, that Dex monk may be the better build for the campaign, because each time you get hit, it hurts more, but the mooks are less likely to hit because of their Feat.

This isn't quite right. The Str monk got in trouble because each change in the scenario featured opponents with a higher expected damage per round being done to the monk- but damage per round is affected by several hidden variables. And it is the expected damage/round the monk recieves that is the key to a monk's survivability...and his ability to deal damage in later rounds.

The number of opponents affects it. Number of attacks affects it. Their equipment affects it. Their to hit and damage bonuses (of whatever source- str, class features, etc.) affect it.

In reality any of these variables that significantly increases the expected damage/round affects the Str monk more adversely than the Dex monk. A foe or foes that hits often but doesn't hit hard could still have an expected damage/round equivalent to the 3 trogs in the last example- as could a foe with a huge weapon but poor accuracy, or a moderate weapon with moderate accuracy.

 

[jeffh]

To those late to the thread, I'm trying to avoid adding in the wildcard of Feats since there are so many out there that it would send the discussion into some crazy spaces.

Not considering Feats may keep things simple, but it also sharply limits the relevance of any conclusions you come to in actual play.

I think what he meant was that Str bonus to the monk's damage will dissapear in the noise of the ever increasing dice of damage the monk will do. +2 Str bonus is big when attached to 1d6 damage, but its importance diminishes when the base damage is 2d10.

I understood that just fine. That is precisely what I was denying, on the grounds that the Strength bonus isn't static either. For example, even if going Dex-based, a monk is likely to want a Belt of Giant Strength by the time he reaches those levels.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Not considering Feats may keep things simple, but it also sharply limits the relevance of any conclusions you come to in actual play.

I realize we’re limiting our conclusions, but we don’t have much choice.

If we include feats, we have to test a wide variety of builds. Is the Str monk better off with Power Attack? If so, should he follow with the Cleave feats? Leaping feat? Sunder?

Should he be a grappler?

Would he be better off with 4 levels of Ftr to boost his BAB, HD, and get Weapon Specialization?

Is a monk better off taking Wild Talent to get access to Psionic Feats, like the tree that gets your melee attack resolved as a touch attack?

Do you expand the available feat list to Dragon Magazine/DCv1 feats? Green Ronin Feats? AEG? Mongoose?

Then once you’ve decided on the Feat list…you also have to consider them for NPCs the builds are tested against. A fighter who routinely uses Power Attack with a Halbard could look a lot like a Trog in terms of stats...but if he’s got a 2 Bladed Sword and 2WF?

Then there’s the consideration of low level buff spells…or how Magic Missile moots the Dex Monk’s advantage completely…or how Sleep moots any non-Elven monk’s attack.

I don’t think anyone REALLY has the time or inclination to consider ALL of the relevant variables.

Heck- we haven’t even considered the effect of something as simple as the variable of initiative! The Dex monk is more likely to get simultaneous or prior initiative on his foes than his Str monk compadre, and doing damage first can definitely have an effect. I’m not going to crunch numbers, but I’d be surprised if the both monks always had initiative over his foes, the ability of the Str monk to do more damage than the Dex monk didn’t prove to be the deciding factor between the builds 99% of the time. If he can drop a foe before the Dex monk, he cuts the expected damage/round, and lives that much longer.

I think what he meant was that Str bonus to the monk's damage will dissapear in the noise of the ever increasing dice of damage the monk will do. +2 Str bonus is big when attached to 1d6 damage, but its importance diminishes when the base damage is 2d10.

I understood that just fine. That is precisely what I was denying, on the grounds that the Strength bonus isn't static either. For example, even if going Dex-based, a monk is likely to want a Belt of Giant Strength by the time he reaches those levels.

Except that any item a Dex monk would take to boost Str could be acquired by a Str monk- its a wash. The only stat changes that matter are those inherent to the PC.

Thus, the only real difference in Dex/Str progressions will occur as the 2 PCs level up- the Dex monk will likely continue to stress his Dex advantage, the Str Monk his Str. One will boost his damage production, the other his AC and Initiative mods.