A subtle reminder from wizards.(or not so subtle)

[Jhaelen]

That's not technically obsoleting or replacing the PH. It's skating awefully close to it, though, and it wouldn't take much for WotC to find out, when they've sold out their back stock of PHs that they were 'mistaken' about that claim.

Yup, and it wouldn't take much to reprint the PHs, either. Here's a totally wild speculation from me:
They're going to decide if they're going to reprint the PH by looking at their sale figures for the PH.

Now, the PH is still going to be available to buy, but what does an Essentials customer get out of buying it? A bunch of rules already in the compendium, some outmoded builds for classes already in the compendium - and a couple of 'new' (old) classes.

What do you mean with outmoded?

Essentials customers will get exactly the same thing from the PH as 'Non-Essentials' 4e customers buying the 4e PH today.

Arguing that the PH doesn't really include anything that's not also available from the DDI is nothing new. Everyone who was interested in having a print version of the PH has bought one. Everyone who will be interested in buying a print version will want to buy one.

just like some current 4e players are interested in getting Essentials to look at the builds, some Essential players might be interested in looking at the PH builds.

 

[JohnSnow]

But an Essentials buyer doesn't need the PHB in order to get the PHB classes. All he (or she) needs is a DDI subscription. And on the Character Builder, the rules will be up-to-date. As a matter of fact, thanks to DDI, someone who comes to the game via Essentials can still get access to every rule WotC has printed to date without every buying one piece of physical product.

They're still going to want some though, hence Essentials. Not to mention that there will be a continual flow of new non-Essentials material as well, like the already announced Heroes of Shadow.

 

[Jhaelen]

But an Essentials buyer doesn't need the PHB in order to get the PHB classes. All he (or she) needs is a DDI subscription.

*sigh*

If someone feels that the DDI is sufficient for him, he won't _be_ an Essentials buyer. Everything from Essentials will be in the DDI, too. So that point is moot.

Obviously only someone interested in buying printed books will buy 'Essentials' books _or_ 'Non-Essential' books.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Yup, and it wouldn't take much to reprint the PHs, either. Here's a totally wild speculation from me:
They're going to decide if they're going to reprint the PH by looking at their sale figures for the PH.

Which also wouldn't be quite what they're claiming now. Today they say "we're done printing the PH, we have plenty of 'em," laster they might say "oh, we were mistaken about the demand for the PH, here's a new printing with all the errata."

But, if they came right out and said "we'll re-print the PH with errata someday," fewer folks are going to be enclined to take those existing copies off their hands, which is a loss.

Is WotC being entirely honest with us? No. Could they be? Not really. Would they be in business today if they always had been entirely honest about everything? Not a chance.

What do you mean with outmoded?.

Builds that don't represent anything not already covered by Essentials classes. The Knight is a meat shield in heavy armor who protects his allies while wielding a weapon & shield. A 'Defender build' Fighter is a meat shield in heavy armor who protects his allies while wielding a weapon & shield. A Warpriest is a holy warrior who heals (and even raises) his allies while braining his enemies with a mace. A 'War Cleric build' is a holy warrior who heals his allies while braining his enemies with a mace, and may or may not have remembered to buy the Raise Dead ritual. Yeah, the PH builds have all kinds of fiddly powers - and fiddly errata - but they're essentially doing the same thing as the corresonding Essentials classes.

Essentials customers will get exactly the same thing from the PH as 'Non-Essentials' 4e customers buying the 4e PH today.

Well, they'll get the reciprocal of what PH customers get when they buy Essentials. If you already have the PH, and you buy the Essentials line, you're getting most of the rules in the PH, with errata, and some redundant builds that represent 'the design philosophy going forward.' If you have Essentials, the PH offers you some rules you already have, without errata, and some redundant builds using a design philosophy WotC has abanadoned - and, incidentally, a class/build or two that aren't redundant (but use the 'old' design philosophy).

How great do either of those options really sound?

 

[JohnSnow]

*sigh*

If someone feels that the DDI is sufficient for him, he won't _be_ an Essentials buyer. Everything from Essentials will be in the DDI, too. So that point is moot.

Obviously only someone interested in buying printed books will buy 'Essentials' books _or_ 'Non-Essential' books.

DDI is not entirely an either/or proposition compared to printed product. I mean, yes, it CAN be. But it can also be used as a supplement to the printed products you DO buy. A DDI customer might not be interested in Essentials (although I suspect the "weapons grade nostalgia" aspect will attract somewhere between some and lots), but someone who buys into the game with Essentials may very well get a DDI subscription down the line. And that means access to the online tools.

Down the road, if/when WotC sells out of the PHB, they'll have a choice to make. What it comes down to is whether they think there's sufficient demand to reprint the PHB 1, and even moreso, whether there's sufficient demand to justify the expense of putting a corrected and updated version into production.

Bear in mind that most of the rules content will already be in the printed Rules Compendium. Several of the character class builds and races (or versions of them so similar as to be basically indistinguishable) will also already be in print. Reprinting the thing as-is does nothing but confuse the only people who might want it - those who start with Essentials and want more builds.

Producing a brand new version of the PHB that includes all the updated content is more expensive, and a good portion of it will already be in print. That's a product for the people who already have the PHB 1, but would anyone buy "Fourth Edition Revised?" It's a little unclear who wants that product. Clearly those who start the game with Essentials aren't going to be interested in a reprint of PHB 1 except (maybe) the class builds and (maybe) some magic items. Going forward, the combat rules may never again come in the same product where you get class builds. The exception to that is probably the stripped down versions included in the Red Box.

So if what's the PHB offers is pretty much about the class builds and their powers, it may make more sense to just do a Heroes of... book that basically reprints those old classes, rather than reprinting the whole PHB. The point I was making is that whatever WotC does print-wise, all the PHB class content (complete with errata no less) is already available on D&D Insider and will continue to be so. Which means that the PHB classes will continue to still be supported without any print product whatsoever.

Now, it could be a long while before WotC runs out of the PHB's they've already go, so this whole line of discussion may be (almost) entirely moot.

 

[MrMyth]

The Warpriest and Cleric are less so. The Cleric is a split-primary STR/WIS class, the Warpriest is pure WIS, and a clear functional replacement for the Cleric STR build. The WIS Cleric builds are compatible with the Warpriest, the STR build is effectively 'orphaned.'

Martial Power 2 came out with an Archer Warlord. That isn't particularly compatible with the melee warlord. That doesn't mean the melee warlord was 'orphaned'. The Knight is farther from a regular Fighter than most builds - but there are elements still shared, and support can still be provided for one or the either in the same way an article can provide support for all types of warlocks or rangers or druids.

Nothing is being left behind. For one thing, most of the existing classes already have a ton of rules and support. The idea that the Str-Cleric isn't viable if WotC isn't producing new supplements or articles for it every few months is just weird. The game has never worked that way.

There is a weird distortion here, where the word 'obsolete' previously referred to content that was overwritten or rendered unusable. Now people are trying to say that anything that isn't receiving constant support is, instead, obsolete.

I just don't see it.

 

[ExploderWizard]

There is a weird distortion here, where the word 'obsolete' previously referred to content that was overwritten or rendered unusable. Now people are trying to say that anything that isn't receiving constant support is, instead, obsolete.

I just don't see it.

Thats because (like me) you are getting old and cannot understand that obsolete means "the right now thing" to a lot of folks these days.

Heck, my BD&D/1E AD&D stuff still works fine with no WOTC support. It's not obsolete to me.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Martial Power 2 came out with an Archer Warlord. That isn't particularly compatible with the melee warlord. That doesn't mean the melee warlord was 'orphaned'.

Of course it wasn't. The archer-warlord didn't functionally replace an existing build, it just expanded what you could do with a Warlord.

The Warpriest isn't like that. It's a melee-oriented, weapon-using Cleric. It's functionally the same as the STR Cleric build in the PH. But, it uses WIS, making all the WIS-build material available to it. Besides, hasn't it as much as been admitted that the split-Primay design is something they regret and want to get away from?

The Knight is farther from a regular Fighter than most builds - but there are elements still shared, and support can still be provided for one or the either in the same way an article can provide support for all types of warlocks or rangers or druids.

The shared elements are the name of the class, meaning a feat that has a preq of 'Fighter,' but not a preq of any Fighter or Knight class feature can be taken by either. That's not a lot of feats. The Knight also gets utilities, so Fighter and Knight utilities can be swapped for eachother. That's pretty limitted compatibility.

More to the point, the Knight is an alternative to the Weapon & Shield 'Defender' Fighter build. They both use weapon & shield, and are primarily about focusing on the defender role, afterall. Any concept one could do, the other could, too. It's not a new build, so much as an alternate build. When you pick up Martial Power 2, you get the option to play a brawling-oriented fighter, something you couldn't really do before. When you pick up Essentials, you get the option to play a defender-focused, weapon & shield fighter, something you've already been able to do.

The Archer-Warlord and Brawling Fighter are builds that expand what you can do with a class, new builds that do something you couldn't before. The Warpriest and Knights are alternative builds, mechanically different ways of handling concepts you could already do with existing builds.

Thus, the STR Cleric is 'orphaned,' and either the Shield Fighter or the Knight will emerge as the more desireable way of handling a weapon-and-shield-style martial defender.

Similarly, the 'Slayer' will presumably be a direct alternative to the PH Greatweapon Fighter.

 

[TarionzCousin]

A thread recap:

Essentials is going to do this thing.
FireLance owns GOLD writing.
Purple Worms are monsters.
My experience differs from yours.
Corporations suck and they want your money.
These posts are very long.

Whew.

Did I miss anything?

 

[Aegeri]

There isn't enough ike in this thread.