A Thought on Turn-Based Movement

[S'mon]

Also, my take on readying actions is that you can only do so in combat time. You cannot ready before combat - that is what initiative is all about.

That's definitely RAW, yup. And I agree: the out of combat equivalent of the in-combat readied action is called 'getting a surprise round'. So eg if you hear the guard coming, you can all ready your spears, and you get a surprise round standard action attack when he turns the corner. If neither side was aware of the other then you roll init. You could analyse it as "the PCs are ready to attack, the guard is ready to turn and run" - but it's all a wash.

 

[sheadunne]

If it really bugs you, I would just keep it simple and get rid of the run action during combat. Problem solved.

 

[S'mon]

If it really bugs you, I would just keep it simple and get rid of the run action during combat. Problem solved.

The Pathfinder Beginner Box gets rid of both the run action and opportunity attacks, but keeps the charge action. I find that works well. You get the same result as with the standard rules when both parties start in contact and both run in a straight line, but instead of run-run then opportunity attack in round 2, you get x2move-charge&attack in round 1 - same result, the pursuer gets an attack on the fleer, but with much less crunch, and feels more realistic to me.

 

[Ferghis]

It was the first round, so there was no way for the PC to ready an action.

Posting to emphasize MoogleEmpMog and shidaku's points. You can ready actions before combat begins. If the readied actions conflict (e.g. I throw my spear at the first creature I see behind the door and I get out of the way if there's an enemy on the other side of the door), then you move those actions into the initiative order (perhaps into a surprise round, depending on the other participants). But there's no reason to not reward someone that predicts something happening.

 

[Ferghis]

Ah. Here's the disconnect. See pg. 25 of the 3.5 DMG: "Combat actions should only be performed in combat...."

This is just a truism.

http://www.gagbay.com/images/2012/09/ron_swanson_award_winner-144437.jpg

and "Attacks, readied actions, charges, and other actions are meant to simulate combat, however, and are best used within the round structure."

More seriously, this is true. Those actions are best used within the round structure. But there are times in which it is opportune to use them outside that structure. Your OP illustrates perfectly a situation in which readied actions should be allowed at the beginning of combat.

 

[S'mon]

I take your point, and it is a good point. The problem is, with the situations expressed in the OP, that it is never possible act quickly and chunk your hand axe or spear at a foe that runs full-out, because, once your foe runs, he's too far away by either range categories or penalties to-hit in order to attack him.

I understand OODA some of the time in these situations--even most of the time. But, every once in a while, it should be possible for a player to say, "That orc is running away from me? I throw my axe at him," and have a chance of hitting.

It's possible if
(a) You won initiative - you brain the guard as he turns to run, or
(b) You had a readied action - you brain the guard as he turns to run.

So there really is no problem here, as anyone who has been in combat or simulated combat can confirm. It's hard enough to draw a pistol and shoot someone fleeing before they get out of effective range, never mind draw an axe (much slower) and do likewise. The idea that you should never be able to outrun a hand axe is ridiculous.

 

[Blackwarder]

I hate declaring before hand. As a round progresses, things change. Players should be able to react to things, not be locked into what they've declared before they were aware of all the circumstances.

Plus, I don't like how asking for declaration breaks up the flow and action of the combat.

I disagree, as long as the action declared are general enough (I close to melee and attack, I cast a magic missile, I drink a potion) then momentary changes in the situation shouldn't be such a problem.
And I find that asking for deceleration help in the flow of combat since everyone at the table need to keep attention at the same time.
Problem is that declaring before acting only really works with rolling initiative each turn, there's no point doing so when initiative is fixed.

Warder

 

[Water Bob]

Of course there is. The PC just declares that they're readying an action in case they come across a foe.

A character cannot ready an action until their initiative count comes up. On round one, the guard won nish, then ran. By the time the first PC can act and ready his action, the guard has already moved.

By the rules, a character cannot ready an action outside of combat.

Keep in mind that actions exist at all times in the game, even when you're not in combat, because you could at any given moment, attack something, cast a spell or what have you.

Ah. Here's the disconnect. See pg. 25 of the 3.5 DMG: "Combat actions should only be performed in combat...." and "Attacks, readied actions, charges, and other actions are meant to simulate combat, however, and are best used within the round structure."

 

[Water Bob]

With real people having a 3-5 second individual OODA loop according to John Boyd, the RAW is perfectly realistic as-is.

I take your point, and it is a good point. The problem is, with the situations expressed in the OP, that it is never possible act quickly and chunk your hand axe or spear at a foe that runs full-out, because, once your foe runs, he's too far away by either range categories or penalties to-hit in order to attack him.

I understand OODA some of the time in these situations--even most of the time. But, every once in a while, it should be possible for a player to say, "That orc is running away from me? I throw my axe at him," and have a chance of hitting.

Edit: OP numbers don't seem to make sense though. If both parties have a 60' speed...

Both parties have Speed 30. Speed 60 is a double move.

Yep. Basically, it's an issue of resolution - the game applies a 6-second 'shutter' on events, meaning that any events that take less time than that are hard to see. It's especially problematic in the very first round of combat, when it's quite likely that a whole bunch of special cases may apply.

The issue can be improved (though not totally eliminated) by reducing the round to a smaller increment and allowing characters to do correspondingly less.

But this seems a lot more finicky than what I propose in the OP: Which is to play the game normally unless someone moves 3x Speed or faster. If you don't have anybody running in a straight line when terrain permits (which is the only time, under the rules, that a character can move 3x Speed or more), then you don't worry about it. It's a non-issue.

If a character does run during the round, he gets a double move on his nish count (which is probably half his movement), then he gets to finish the move after all other characters have had a chance to act.



EXAMPLE:

A version of the OP--two PC's round a corner in a dungeon and see a human guard standing 10 foot away, facing them. There is no surprise. Initiative is thrown. The Guard wins.

1. The Guard wants to run, full-out, down away from the PCs, to warn his comrades. Speed 30. He is only allowed to move 60 foot at this time (he can complete his move of an additonal 60 after the two PCs have moved).

Thus, the Guard starts at 10 foot from the PCs, then moves 60. At this point, he's at 70 foot from the PC's, with 60 more feet coming.



2. PC 1 goes next. He's got a spear and wants to throw it at the guard. He moves 30 feet and throws his spear. Distance is 40 foot to the target. The spear has a 10' range increment, which means PC 1 can take this shot at a -6 penalty.

That sounds reasonable, yes, doesn't it?



3. PC 2 is last to move in the initiative count. He pulls his axe from his belt, which he can do as an action combined with his movement, moves 30 feet, and throws. His attack is also at a -6 penalty.

See...the difference in this and the RAW is that the attack is possible.



4. Now that everybody has acted, the Guard, if he still lives, can complete the rest of his movement, so he now moves 60 more feet, ending the round 100 feet from the PCs.

I think that all plays out easily, nicely, and smoothly.

 

[DnD_Dad]

That's why at the beginning of the turn I have everyone declare there actions after initiative rolled but before anyone starts moving. Most older systems such as 2nd edition AD&D had it the same way. If you character is going to throw a spear it isn't like his enemy is going to stop in time while they do so.