A thought on Turn Undead

[Quartz]

Thinking out loud here. Turn Undead's a bit of an unwieldy mechanic. It doesn't square with the rest of the D20 magic system, and then there are the uses of Turn Undead to power Divine feats.

As is, clerics essentially double-dip for their divine power.

What if clerics had to expend their holy power i.e. spell slots to Turn Undead? The affected undead would then have a Will (maybe Fort?) save of 10 + Spell level + Stat bonus + applicable feats as per a normal spell. If the undead fails its first save, it has to make a second save to avoid being commanded or destroyed. Turn resistance would probably only apply to the second save.

What if clerics had to expend spell slots to power Divine feats? E.g. the cleric uses a 3rd level slot and thus his Divine Power is +3 for the requisite number of rounds? Or should it be + Cha Bonus for 3 rounds? This would nerf those paladins who stop after L4 because they just want the uses of Turn Undead to power Divine feats.

What do you think? Is this worth further thought?

 

[robberbaron]

I think I see what you mean. Remove the 'free uses' of Turn and replace them with a cost. Don't really like the idea of using spell slots, though. Clerics are often seen as merely healers, anyway. This might make even that task difficult in an undead-heavy adventure.

I think I'd rather limit the number of Turn chances a cleric gets. Rather than 3+CHA bonus, make it 1+CHA bonus, or even just CHA bonus. Or just 3, perhaps with a feat allowing CHA bonus extra chances.

Or, make it 3+CHA per WEEK.

 

[ThatGuyThere]

My problem with Turn Undead has always been twofold:

1) It's non-intuitive. It's the only part of the game (essentially) where you roll for success on a chart, not against a DC or against an opponent's check. And undead don't get a save - they either are, or are not, turned.

2) It's non-cumulative. As the undead pour in to consume the party, and the fighter swings his sword and the wizard casts his magic missiles, the cleric... ...tells the undead to leave. Flavourful? Debateably. But doesn't get across that the Cleric is the undead butt-kicker, exactly, does it?

So I've switched to turns that do damage. Turn Undead deals 1d6 damage per Cleric level, with a Will save to halve the damage, to all undead you can trace a line of effect to within 30 feet. The save DC is 10, plus half your Cleric level, plus you Charisma modifier; you get a +2 bonus for 5 or more Ranks in Knowledge (Religion).

Undead with Turn Resistance prevent damage from these turns, equal to five times their "listed" Turn Resistance. A Greater Turning (from the Sun domain) ignores turn resistance.

Under these rules, Clerics no longer scare undead off, they kill 'em.

 

[GreatLemur]

1) It's non-intuitive. It's the only part of the game (essentially) where you roll for success on a chart, not against a DC or against an opponent's check.

Yeah, that always struck me as drastically weird and bad design. I'd love to hear a rationale for why such a convoluted and out-of-place mechanism was used. Forcing undead--either all within a certain radius or up to a level-based number of HD worth--to save against a level-based DC sounds a hell of a lot more reasonable, to me.

I also agree that the effect of forcing undead to flee isn't the most interesting or logical thing that turning could do. I've seen a lot of mechanics for alternate effects, and basically all of them sound better to me: paralysis (or even just a "cowering" status without needing to be cornered), weakening (however that would be modeled), damage (as you described), etc.

But then, I'm all for making Turn Undead a feat-based (or domain power-based) ability, anyway. I never liked the idea that Clerics of all gods are undead-wranglers.

 

[trav_laney]

What if clerics had to expend spell slots to power Divine feats?

In my next campaign, I am going to test out making Turn Undead a spell. Something along these lines:

----------------------------------------------
Turn Undead, Lesser
Evocation [Good]
Level: Clr 1, Pal 1
Components: V, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Area: 20' radius, centered on caster
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude half
Spell Resistance: No
--------------------------------------------

Since we use the alternate rules for turning undead (pg. 87 of "Complete Divine,") it is easy to calculate the undead affected and the damage done by this spell (1d6 per 2 cleric levels, max 5d6). Undead are allowed a Fortitude save for half damage; undead with Turn Resistance take no damage on a successful save. Undead with more HD than the caster's cleric level are not affected at all.

This is the "lesser" version of this spell, which is 1st level. The "regular" version of this spell would be 3rd level or so, and would deal 1d6 points of damage per cleric level, to a max of 10d6. And the "greater" version of this spell would be at least 6th level (sorry, paladins) and would deal 1d6 points of damage per cleric level, and would cap at 20d6. Epic? No cap.

Of course, this isn't without its problems.

The Improved Turning and Extra Turning feats are made useless, for example, and many prestige classes that require them will have to be revised. Metamagic feats now apply to turning the undead. The synergy bonus for Knowledge (religion) no longer applies and will have to be rewritten. It allows a cleric to make magical wands of turn undead and hand them out to rogues and bards.

These might be good things, these might be bad things, depending on how your campaign is run. In my campaign, I think it will be kinda cool.

 

[Quartz]

This looks good - I'm not worried about rewriting prestige classes etc - but I'm not so sure about its functionality at higher levels, especially where the undead are intelligent and are sure to have that feat which allows them to get their Cha bonus in HP to each HD. Maybe the higher level spells use d8 and d10? And possiby Turn Resistance is simply a special sort of DR?

 

[trav_laney]

This looks good - I'm not worried about rewriting prestige classes etc - but I'm not so sure about its functionality at higher levels, especially where the undead are intelligent and are sure to have that feat which allows them to get their Cha bonus in HP to each HD. Maybe the higher level spells use d8 and d10? And possiby Turn Resistance is simply a special sort of DR?

I made Turn Resistance into something like Evasion...undead who have Turn Resistance gain a bonus to their Fortitude save, and take no damage on a successful save. Much more useful when turning undead can be Maximized/ Heightened/ Empowered/Etc.

As far as intelligent undead go, I like the thought of undead spellcasters being able to counter/disspel the effect. I think it would make a battle with a lich tactically interesting.

And speaking of evil spellcasters, not long after I posted the idea for making Turn Undead a spell, I realized that I would have to do something about the evil spellcasters. You know, clerics who channel negative energy instead of positive. So for Rebuking/ Bolstering/ Commanding the undead, I suggest the following:

Rebuke Undead: unnecessary; just add halt undead to the cleric spell list.

Commanding the Undead: unnecessary; just add command undead to the cleric spell list, and give it the [Evil] subtype.

Bolstering the Undead: replace it with a spell (below). Basically, this would be the "evil" counterpart of the turn undead family of spells.

--------------------------------------------
Bolster Undead, Lesser
Necromancy [Evil]
Level: Clr 1
Components: V, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Area: 20' radius, centered on caster
Duration: 1 round/cleric level
Saving Throw: None (harmless)
Spell Resistance: No
--------------------------------------------

All undead within the area of effect gain 1d6 temporary hit points per 2 cleric levels (max 5d6). These temporary hit points last for 1 round per the caster's cleric level, or until dispelled. As with the turn undead spell, undead with more HD than the caster's cleric level are unaffected by this spell.

The "normal" version of this spell would probably be about 3rd level or so, and would grant 1d6 temporary hit points per caster level (max 10d6) to all undead within the area of effect. The greater version grants up to 20d6 temporary hit points, and the Epic version doesn't have a cap.

These spells may be negated by any turn undead spell of equal or greater level, and may be readied against an enemy's turn undead spell of equal or lesser level as part of a counterspell action.

Imagine how terrifying this spell would be, when the lich's "lowly" skeleton henchmen stand up to the party's maximized fireball spell. Finally, creating an army of skeletons is worth the cost of the onyx...

 

[Gerion of Mercadia]

Yikes -

Wizards, in a way - already have tried to "replicate" things similar to undead turning; notably "hold undead" and "control undead".

Second, there are certain elements of the game that you would have to re-write. The most immediate of these would be the granted power of the Sun Domain.

This is a "tread very carefully" idea, but workable.

 

[Warbringer]

I'm playing around with the following

d6 per effective cleric level (Turn Resistance reduces the numer of d6s)
cha= charisma bonus

Turn Undead: Damage nd6 (AoE radius = 5*n, close range; or line = cha*5 wide,n*10 long. PoO cleric); Reflex save 10+n+cha
Rebuke Undead: Control nd6 HD of undead; Will save 10+n+cha
Bolster Undead: Add clerics HD+cha to will/reflex save

Cleric can power up turn/control/rebuke by spending more than 1 turn attempt. Additional turn burned add +2 to n... max extra turns added = cha

 

[Sir Brennen]

If one were to make Undead Turning/Bolstering into a spell, then I would perhaps allow it to be spontaneously cast, just like healing spells. This would tie back to the OP's original thought of spending spell slots for Turning. The biggest (non-core) impact I can see is the Divine feats, which are fueled by spending a Turn Attempt per day.

Here's my own system, which uses Turning as Damage (nka Divine Channeling IMC, due to other uses it can be put to), and staggers the acquisition of Turn Attempts so the class isn't too front loaded.

==================

This section presents a change to the way Turning Undead is handled, making it similar to other spell-like abilities instead of the obscure, hold-over mechanic it is currently. A few other new options are also presented. Turning undead is a Divine Channeling technique, requiring a character to spend one of his divine channeling uses per day to activate. Turning undead is a standard action.

Turning Damage
Turning inflicts damage equal to 1d8 + 1d8 per 2 class levels to all undead within a 20' radius circle centered on the character. (The number of damage dice is basically equal to the cleric's BAB + 1.) Any undead in this area are allowed a Will save for half damage against a DC of [10 + cleric level + Cha modifier].

Turn Attempts per Day
The cleric has the ability to channel positive or negative soul energy, which is most commonly used to deal with the undead. The cleric can do this once per day at 1st level, with additional attempts gained at 2nd and 4th level. In addition, she receives a number of divine channeling uses equal to her Cha bonus (if any), gaining one at each odd-numbered level beginning at 1st.

Using Negative Energy
Characters who channel negative energy may not use it to harm undead directly. Instead, Turning which uses negative energy can be applied in any of the following ways:

• Rebuking: Damage dealt to undead by turning with negative energy (rebuking) is tracked separately, similar to subdual damage, but has no effect until the rebuking damage exceeds a target's total hit points. Once this happens, the undead must make another Will Save, or become commanded (see below.) If the save is made, the undead are considered to be cowering (rebuked) instead. They will remain in a commanded or cowering state while the cleric is 30' of them and has line of sight. Should the cleric move beyond this range, lose line of sight or become unconscious, the undead will remain in a rebuked or commanded state for a number of minutes equal to the cleric's CHA bonus + 1. After this point, all rebuking damage against them is removed.

• Commanding: Undead which have received rebuking damage in excess of their hit points and failed a second saving throw are commanded. The effect is similar to the Control Undead spell, except any number of undead can be affected whose total hit dice do not exceed the character's class level x 2. The effect lasts as long as the undead are within 30' of the cleric, and for a number of minutes equal to the character's CHA bonus + 1 after. A character may use another turn attempt against rebuked undead not under his control to try to command them. The targets get another Will save, but do not take any additional rebuking damage.

• Healing: A character may use negative energyl to heal physical damage to undead rather than rebuke them. This uses a normal turn attempt.

Enhanced Turning
By redirecting part of the divine energy that would normally cause damage to undead, a character may add any of the following enhancements to his turn attempt. More than one enhancement may be used at a time, but effects do not stack with themselves.

• Sacred/Profane Light: Sacrifice one die of damage to gain a +2 Sacred/Profane bonus to the Save DC
• Fearful Light: Sacrifice a die of damage. A failed Will Save also leaves targets Shaken for 10 rounds
• Blinding Light: Sacrifice x dice of damage. Any undead approaching the character treat him as if he were under the effects of a Sanctuary spell for a number of rounds equal to 1 + the number of dice sacrificed.
• Burning Light: (Positive Energy only) Sacrifice a die of damage. On a failed REF save against the Turning DC, the targets have also caught on fire
• Bolstering Light: (Negative Energy only) Sacrifice x dice of damage. For every two dice sacrificed, targets receive a +1 profane bonus to Will saves against Turning damage. This bonus lasts for 10 rounds

Other Changes
The changes to the Turning Undead rules impact some other rules designed for the official system. Here are the modifications to those rules to work with the variant presented on this page:

Turning Other Creatures
Some domains grant the ability to turn other creatures besides undead. These granted abilities follow the turning rules as presented here, with the exception that the save against turning damage uses the better of the creature's Fort or Ref bonuses.

Turn Resistance
Creatures with Turn resistance add this value to their Will save. A +2 Turn Resistance also gives Positive Energy Resistance 5, while +4 gives Positive Energy Resistance 10.

Turn Susceptiblity
Mindless undead, such as skeletons and zombies, are usually more vulnerable to Divine Channeling. Zombies typically have a -4 to their Will Save, and Skeletons a -2. When turning mindless creatures other than undead, they also receive a -2 penalty.

Feats
• Extra Turning: grants +3 turning attempts per day
• Improved Turning: functions as written, but note how this affects the Save DC and damage with the new rules.

Domains
The granted power of the Sun domain is changed to "Empowered Turning: Once per day, Divine Channeling damage is increased by one-half"

Magic Items
The Phylactery of Undead Turning still functions as written, but note how this affects the Save DC and damage with the new rules.