D&D 5E A truly horrifying Age of Worms

[jgsugden]

Another thing to consider - characters being effective in combat is not inherently going to ruin a game. If your PCs can fight back the darkness with their powerful magic, that would make them heroes.

The horror of this adventure path is not what happens to the PCs. It is what this threat can do to everyone else. If you have trouble seeing how watching hundreds of thousands of people die to a threat like this can be scary, you're missing an obvious recent example.

 

[TheSword]

It's not about being reluctant to tinker. Plenty of people have given plenty of suggestions to tinker with the rules.

What you're suggesting is less like banning paladins from Dark Sun and more like banning Wizards in a campaign set in Hogwarts.

Most of the reluctance that I've seen in this thread seems to stem not from a hesitancy to change things or set limits. Rather, my impression is that the proposed solution does not address the issue well.

The suggestions seem to be in two camps...

- Make the worms more powerful/harder to resist/remove.

- ignore the problem and roll with it.

Have I missed something here? I’m not seeing an engagement with the idea of removing diving magic from players hands, rather just a blanket refusal to contemplate it.

It isn’t removing wizards from Hogwarts... it’s removing specifically tooled mage-killers from Hogwarts.

 

[Mort]

I also don’t see how going through class features piece be piece to balance things is easier than just saying “guys, avoid clerics and paladins this time round as it’s an apocalyptic campaign and I don’t want you to suffer.” It might be more balanced, or it might be fairer to players... but it definitely isn’t easier.

Incidentally this conversation could also have taken place about Curse of Strahd or Carrion Crown.

I'll agree with @Fanaelialae; It's not really tinkering to take the classes very thematically appropriate for the adventure and uber-nerf them to the point of making taking them pointless (all because it'll otherwise be "too easy"). Much better to tweak things so that it's not too easy for those classes (which isn't difficult at all - and not by nerfing the class into near unplayability; great example above - require significant upcasting of spells to remove certain curses).

 

[TheSword]

Another thing to consider - characters being effective in combat is not inherently going to ruin a game. If your PCs can fight back the darkness with their powerful magic, that would make them heroes.

The horror of this adventure path is not what happens to the PCs. It is what this threat can do to everyone else. If you have trouble seeing how watching hundreds of thousands of people die to a threat like this can be scary, you're missing an obvious recent example.

Absolutely, and as the campaign progresses this becomes the main driver as the part try to ‘save the world’ as they themselves are now largely immune to the problem personally. However the initial encounters with the worms should be impactful and effecting and I’m saying that isn’t the case with 5e as it currently stands.

 

[TheSword]

It would be helpful to know who is familiar with the campaign itself. There seem to be people with strong opinions about what is thematically appropriate. I don’t see anything about the campaign that makes Paladins and Clerics thematic... they’re just powerful.

There aren’t any notable religious organizations involved, the other gods are barely mentioned and the conventional pantheons don’t seem even to get a feature. The law / chaos war is the significant planar reference.

 

[Oofta]

@TheSword if you don't want to listen to the advice of everyone that's posted, why ask?

Nobody's saying "don't tinker" we're saying "there are better ways of dealing with the perceived issue".

 

[Mort]

Have I missed something here? I’m not seeing an engagement with the idea of removing diving magic from players hands, rather just a blanket refusal to contemplate it.

I believe most people are saying, if you're going to remove it then remove it (no clerics, druids, paladins etc.) - don't nerf the classes that have it with no compensation - because then all you get are classes that are significantly behind the curve. That's certainly my view. It's all about balance within the PCs not balance toward the world.

 

[Oofta]

One other thing. The proposed solution feels very much like adversarial DMing. I'm sure that's not the intent, but it's the way it comes off.

 

[Var]

It's not about being reluctant to tinker. Plenty of people have given plenty of suggestions to tinker with the rules.

What you're suggesting is less like banning paladins from Dark Sun and more like banning Wizards in a campaign set in Hogwarts.

Most of the reluctance that I've seen in this thread seems to stem not from a hesitancy to change things or set limits. Rather, my impression is that the proposed solution does not address the issue well.

This.

There's exactly one problem that seems to be the reason to swing the nerfbat at Divine Casters and its not Lesser Restoration, it's Turn Undead. Otherwise you'd also have to ban Bards and Druids. Lesser Restoration and Lay on Hand not curing Worms is a simple matter, there's no Rulebook reference about a worm plague turning people into undead being dead set to be a run of the mill disease.
From an onlooker's viewpoint your're more or less attempting to use dynamite to remove a couple daisies from your flowerbed. Rather than just getting rid of them manually and going ahead with your campaign.

There's a mere 2 minor fixes.
1. Turn Undead doesn't seem to work in the region or on the Worm Undead in particular.
2. It's not a nasty cough, it's a magical plague and Lesser Restoration isn't gonna cut it. Might as well not removeable by anything shy of Greater Restoration or specifically brewed potions you're in charge of distribting in amounts that makes sense for you.
I'd personally take Lycantrophy as reference for a magical disease with an physical component. Lesser Restoration is simply not gonna cut it and your players aren't ever gonna second guess it.

 

[TheSword]

I believe most people are saying, if you're going to remove it then remove it (no clerics, druids, paladins etc.) - don't nerf the classes that have it with no compensation - because then all you get are classes that are significantly behind the curve. That's certainly my view. It's all about balance within the PCs not balance toward the world.

Yes remove those classes as PCs. Classes don’t exist in 5e as NPCs so I’m free to make the High Priest of St Cuthbert as strong or weak as I like.