A variant fighter?

[Chupacabra]

I agree whole-heartedly with the dread of the fighter "dead levels".

In my current campaign, I had a character concept for a PC that was primarily a fighter with a few levels of rogue mixed in for a bit of diversity (a dwarf who was apprenticed early in life in the Dwarven Engineering Guild, giving him some knowledge of locks, traps, etc.) I started as a 0/0 fighter/rogue and worked my way slowly up as the campaign progressed. Every time I leveled this character up, the Rogue levels looked FAR more tempting than another level of Fighter. Tons o' skill points and cool abilities versus a Fort save bump and a +1 BAB, oh and a bonus feat if I was lucky enought to be on an even-numbered fighter level.

If I wanted to progress towards a fighter bonus feat, I had to put my Rogue advancement on hold for what seemed like a LONG time (two levels). As it stands, my PC is leaning farther and farther towards Rogue as I level up. Yet, my damage output (with a sneak attack here and there) outshines the single-class fighter in our group.

If fighters could access a combat feat each level, I think that would help multiclassers like myself dip into the fighter pool a bit more deeply. As it stands now, other classes seem to offer better benefits.

 

[Nifft]

What about if, at level 3 and every other odd level thereafter, Fighters chose one Weapon Focus or Exotic Weapon Proficency. It reduces the "dead level" syndrome, fits their flavor as flexible masters of arms, and isn't overpowering since it's not giving them any extra "chain" feats.

-- N

 

[Jens]

I'd like the spreadsheet as well, please.

Me too, me too! I want in on the fun

edited: removed email address after downloading (thanks for putting it up).

if minor extras should be given at 'dead' fighter levels, how about offering some skill-related stuff as well; things like an extra class skill, a few extra skill points, maybe Skill Focus, something like that. But it should be things which are equivalent to weak feats for fighter-types.

 

[SSquirrel]

To make things easier for DrSpunj (and to help spread the goodness that I'm sure is the file...heading to bed and will view it in the morning) I've put it up on my website. Naturally DrS if ya don't want it up lemme know.

www.giant.net/~hagen/DrSpunj_s_Class_Balance.xls


1.5MB for the file. Hope everyone enjoys. I also have a copy of Ken Hood's Grim N Gritty rules posted for download as they are apparently hard to find for lots of folks.


www.giant.net/~hagen/GrimNGrittyHitPointRules.rtf

Hagen

 

[DrSpunj]

edited: removed email address after downloading (thanks for putting it up).

I'll assume this means you grabbed a copy, Jens. And a big thank you to SSquirrel for hosting the file! That's much easier than me trying to check my email & this thread every couple hours to try and keep up with people's requests.

So that we don't completely hijack Ranger5's thread (sorry, dude!) I've started my own topic on the spreadsheet here. Please comment on the spreadsheet there.

Thanks!

DrSpunj

 

[Grayhawk]

What about if, at level 3 and every other odd level thereafter, Fighters chose one Weapon Focus or Exotic Weapon Proficency. It reduces the "dead level" syndrome, fits their flavor as flexible masters of arms, and isn't overpowering since it's not giving them any extra "chain" feats.

Ranger5, while I think that it's cool that your change is working for your game, I find that it would be too much for my own. I prefer Nifft's suggestion, as it grants less power.

I'm actually pretty satisfied with the Fighter's power level, so I would rather tone down the powers of the other classes to meet that of the Fighter than the other way around.

I also don't believe that there's such a thing as an 'empty' level, as you always get something: Some more HP, an extra attack, better saves, etc.

And I don't use PrC's. At all. I'm aware that I'm propably the only one on these boards to do so, but at least it saves me from the need to balance my core classes againt them

 

[Nifft]

I'm gonna revise my suggestion: at every odd level (including 1st), the Fighter gets a bonus "Weapon Expert" Feat, which is any of Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, or the Greater version of these, so long as he is qualified to take the Feat in question. (This makes their 1st level Feat less flexible, but they still get a ton of flexible Feats, and they'll likely have the whole Weapon Specialization chain in at least two different weapons.)

-- N

 

[DrSpunj]

...gets a bonus "Weapon Expert" Feat, which is any of Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, or the Greater version of these, so long as he is qualified to take the Feat in question.

That sounds doable. If I was going to adopt this I'd keep the Exotic Weapon Prof feat in there as an option, as that makes a ton of sense to me for the Fighter class.

Over 20 levels you'd get these at every odd level, so 10 total. With the basic & Greater forms of each, that's 4 feats per weapon. By focusing on both a Melee & a Ranged weapon you've used 8 (or 2 melee if going with 2 weapon fighting with different weapons). If either (or both) are exotic you've finished up the last 1 or 2.

A very good suggestion overall, IMO.

Still, we're talking about a very fine line. The focus & spec feats are good feats. By forcing the Fighter to take those at odd levels, he's free to take any of his other bonus feats at even levels. Changing them to bonus feats gives you more versatility to get to the top of some feat trees and into some Prestige Classes quicker. Hmmm....

Not bad, Nifft, not bad at all.

Thanks!

DrSpunj

 

[Nifft]

That sounds doable. If I was going to adopt this I'd keep the Exotic Weapon Prof feat in there as an option, as that makes a ton of sense to me for the Fighter class.

Good call. I forgot that big of genius of mine!

I may impliment this in my campaign. Especially for bad guys.

-- N

 

[DrSpunj]

I'm actually pretty satisfied with the Fighter's power level, so I would rather tone down the powers of the other classes to meet that of the Fighter than the other way around.

Interesting. Any idea how you'd go about doing that? Or have you already? What does the Wizard have that you'd take away? His bonus feats? Slow his spellcasting down to that of the Sorcerer (thereby pushing higher level spells back another level?).

Just curious what you suggest. It's true that's the other way to balance things. It just seems like a lot less work to bring one (or a couple) classes up then to bring all the others down.

I also don't believe that there's such a thing as an 'empty' level, as you always get something: Some more HP, an extra attack, better saves, etc.

That's true, but none of those are specific to taking a Fighter level. Three other base classes will give you the same BAB and nearly the same HD. Your Fort save will also increase just the same, and your Skill Points will stay the same, double or triple by taking one of these other classes. There just isn't a lot to recommend the Core Fighter when looking at those odd levels.

Still, whatever works for you and your players to have a fun game!

Thanks.

DrSpunj