A world with no money

[Tonguez]

I'm going to do a 'primitive' society setting in which

1. the concept of money doesn't exist
2. communal property does

Now how would you handle this especially when it comes to PCs acquiring magical treasure etc

I had thought of retaining gp but calling it something like 'Influence' basically to show that a particular PC has the influence to get a resource they want (also it mimics precedent of magic items only being useable by those of sufficient status)

Another idea is to give everyone Leadership at level 1 with a cohort of higher level being considered a 'Patron' and then working from there

Any thoughts?

 

[Felix]

Communal property exists sometimes, or is everything communal?

If everything is, one feature is that the society should be nomadic; it was when (not presicely, but it helped) humans settled down that the idea of private property popped up.

Even then, I would think that some form of exchange might have evolved, even if the medium of exchange wasn't called money. Perhaps set up a barter system for the small stuff, and have the magic stuff come from a lord once the PCs have done him a service. Other magic stuff could be found while adventuring.

Sounds like a tough row to hoe; good luck!

 

[Kahuna Burger]

I'm going to do a 'primitive' society setting in which

1. the concept of money doesn't exist
2. communal property does

Now how would you handle this especially when it comes to PCs acquiring magical treasure etc

I had thought of retaining gp but calling it something like 'Influence' basically to show that a particular PC has the influence to get a resource they want (also it mimics precedent of magic items only being useable by those of sufficient status)

I'd have the availability of gear dependant on a combination of the PC's place in their tribe (prolly having to do with level) and the resources you think should be available to the tribe. Don't think about 'treasure' think about usable resources. Gems are only useful for spells, gold is this soft weird stuff... but a good pile of dragon scales you could make sheilds out of... now thats worth adventuring for!

Both you and the players will need to get into a very specific mindset for this kind of game, and I strongly advise checking with your players first - it just takes one guy who figures his character has an epiphany and invents objectivism, and your campaign is down the tubes...

Kahuna Burger

 

[Tonguez]

Some more details

1. Communal Property
A lot of common items including torches, rope, food stores and means of transport (canoes/animals) etc would count as common property of the 'clan'

So if a PC needs a war canoe in order to travel to the next Island and defeat the evil scorcerer how will they get it?

I suppose Level + Cha (Like Leadership) is a possibility re their influence by how do you determine quantity of available resources (DM fiat?)...

2. Personal Items
Personal items (clothing, jewlery, weapons) would probably be considered 'owned' by the individual.

These items would generally be made by Crafters (Expert) who would be quite influential because of them. A barter system is possible of course and it is proabaly wise that any Patron (cohort) that a PC has is an Expert able to produce said items.

I also intend on allowing Experts to pick up the Craft Magic feats thus gaining the ability to produce +1 - +5 magic items. Other Magic items will probably be 'gifts' given by powerful NPCs and spirits...

 

[bmcdaniel]

Wealth Mechanic

You may want to consider a wealth mechanic, where characters have a "wealth bonus" and roll (or take 10) against the DC of the item they want to acquire. d20 Modern uses this mechanic. I have a so-far unimplemented version for my next campaign, which I've excerpted below.


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Wealth Mechanic
Heroic Greece uses an abstract Wealth bonus system adapted from d20 Modern rather than tracking actual wealth. In Heroic Greece, coinage was rare to nonexistent, and a person’s ability to procure goods and services depends on what they could extract from their own estate and what they can induce others to give up, usually through barter or reciprocal gift exchange. In the game, this physical and social capital that a character can draw upon is abstracted as a Wealth Bonus. At higher levels, heroes can expect to receive magical support from their patron god.
A character’s raw Wealth Bonus represents his ordinary living conditions, what a person of his status can always comfortably procure. Items with a Wealth DC less than or equal to a character’s Wealth Bonus can always be had. Items with a greater Wealth DC than the character’s Wealth Bonus may be had with a successful Wealth check, but the acquisition reduces the character’s Wealth Bonus.

Calculating Wealth Bonus
The Wealth Bonus is the sum of the Basic Wealth Bonus, the Accumulated Wealth Bonus and a character’s Charisma modifier (excluding any magical enhancement). Basic Wealth Bonus represents a character’s wealth due to his inherent characteristics, such as his professional skills, and standing in society. Accumulated Wealth Bonus represents a character’s wealth due to gold or other valuables he has stored.
Basic Wealth Bonus
Basic Wealth Bonus (BWB) is calculated from character level (drop all fractions):
Aristocrat- 1 x level
Expert, Priest- ¾ x level
All other classes- ½ x level
Alternatively, a character with the Profession or Craft skills can calculate a Basic Wealth Bonus from the highest such skill:
Profession- 1 x ranks (maximum 6 ranks)
Craft skill- ¾ x ranks (maximum 8 ranks)

Accumulated Wealth Bonus
A character’s Accumulated Wealth Bonus starts at 0 and can increase or decrease during play. A character increases his Accumulated Wealth Bonus whenever he acquires a treasure with a Wealth DC greater than his Wealth Bonus (ignoring for this purpose his Charisma bonus). Decreases in Accumulated Wealth Bonus happen when a character purchases items with a Wealth DC greater than character’s Wealth Bonus. A character’s Accumulated Wealth Bonus can be less than zero if it is reduced during play, but a character can’t take any action that would cause his total Wealth Bonus to be less than zero.

Using Wealth
Generally, if a good or service’s Wealth DC is less than a character’s Wealth Bonus (taking into account all circumstance modifiers) the character can procure it without difficulty or penalty.

If a good or service has a Wealth DC greater than a character’s Wealth Bonus, he can make a Wealth check to try to acquire the item. A Wealth check is a d20 roll plus the character’s Wealth Bonus (and modifiers). If the result of the check is greater than or equal to the Wealth DC of the item, the character procures it. Regardless of whether the Wealth check is successful or not, the character’s Accumulated Wealth Bonus is reduced by half (rounding up) the excess of the item’s Wealth DC over the character’s Wealth Bonus. However, a character cannot make a Wealth check to acquire an item that would cause his Total Wealth Bonus to be less than zero (although his Accumulated Wealth Bonus can be less than zero).

 

[zug_zug]

Alot of good ideas If I may I might add the following inspired a bit by some Native American "economies".

Depending on how an area makes its "living" hunting etc, or the level of technology is important. If,for a poor example, the Lakota the tech is roughly stone age and the economy is based on nomadic hunting and raiding, there a few ways to gain stuff.

1. Making it
2.Barter/Trade with outside economies
3. Loot from war

Within your own nation, gaining equipment may be based on making it. I would assume every individual would have some property that is theirs and theirs alone. To use a Lakota example, wealth could be based on how many horses one possesses.

However, gaining weapons and items from your own clan may be an option. Since there may be a caste or class system in a society, one member of a clan could "draw" eqipment from a fellow clan member. This could be maybe an "influence" check (for want of a better word) where a warrior type may request a weapon to defend his clan from the artisan types of his social group. This influence could be based on social standing- everyone in your culture could have social points that they gain or lose depending on how they act, and what ood they do for the society(abit akin to honor in the Rokugan setting). These social points could be "spent" to influence (ie "buy") things.

Barter is pretty selfexplanatory-all groups have somethig than outsiders find useful. So some thing could be used in place of a currency.

Loot I guess is pretty self explanatory-and it opens up neat story ideas. Say a neighboring society is very very good at making magic items. This society is small and xenophobic, not a threat but unwilling to trade. Your society could raid to gain items for use against a powerful marauding beastie that endangerous your kin.

Anyway, my 2 cents, maybe stating the obvious

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

IRL, there are a lot of ways these dynamics are handled.
In a similar situation in my campaigns, I set up a very ritualized system for determing spoils. That way there was some idea of personal property, but the only thing it could really be redeemed for was labor or other forms of personal property.

Of course, the primary purpose of any sort of property was to support the community, so 'wealth' was actually determined by the amount that was given away.

There were a lot of magical items and a sense of personal gear, but noone would sell their gear or destroy it out of sense of owners perogative.

 

[Eben]

You might want to check out the Slaine RPG from Mongoose. This is a prehistoric setting with a Celtick baskdrop. There is a currency system based on chickens, pigs, cows and cumals (female slaves) Barter is the norm of course.

Your standing in society is your "Enech" (litt: face) Everybody starts with 1 and depending on your deeds it goes up or down. Negative Enech makes you effectively an outcast. Your Enech probably defines your relationship with your kin and the possibility to fall back on them when you need them. This has obviously more value than personal wealth. (And that way you don't have to bend your mind around concepts like communal property, which are somewhat difficult for us capitalists, just like our juristdiction only recognises individuals and not groups (clan, tibe, whatever) as legal entities.)

Highly recommended for this kind of setting. But don't take my word for it, check out the reviews.

 

[Fenes 2]

In one of my campaigns I have abandoned money as far as the exact amount in the hands of the PCs is concerned. The PCs basically have "life standards", and can generally get their hands on anything appropriate for their standing.

Since magic gear is not sold in that campaign apart from some scrolls and potions, game balance is not affected, and the DM controls the availability anyway.

Works for me, and I use a similar system in my Shadowrun campaign as well.

 

[Eben]

Fennes, how do you handle character creation? Especially in Shadowrun, where gear is a big component of the game.