A worry about "special case monster abilities"

[Imp]

The impression that I get is the "Human shield" technique is something that isn't just a simple grappling move. That's something you have to train a long while to be able to do (ergo why it's an ability, not just in the rules representing 'I grab you'). After all, how easy is it to, while holding someone, be able to turn 180 to get someone back-stabbing you to spear your victim? People have to take martial arts to be able to do that, but any farmer can do it due to grapple rules?

In addition, we don't know how strong an ability it is. It may be too potent to just let Anyone do it for free, or even as a low level maneuver.

The problem with the human shield business is that you have to go to these kinds of lengths to justify it as bugbear-strangler-only, whereas, for example, if the human shield was something that a slimy abberation-type monster employed by gluing its opponent to its body with an attack, then it's much easier to tell the players that their characters can't do that.

I mean, even if 4e bugbears had four arms it would help resolve the "only I can master Tiger Style kung fu" quality of this particular maneuver.

 

[I'm A Banana]

But then that assumes that giants all live near rocks, and somehow it's innate to giants to be proficient with rocks.

Proficiency and racial bonus = special ability.

Yeah, it does assume that, but it's not the same as a unique special ability. Under 4e, Bugbear Stranglers can take people and use them as sheilds. No one else can, really. There's no rules for it. You could make rules up, using the guidelines given, but I'm not really happy if I pay designers to tell me to make stuff up myself.

Under 3e, giants often throw rocks (as presented in their stats), and people can throw rocks, too (improvised throwing weapons). That's a continuum -- giants do it better, people can still do it.

Like the rules above, would be a continuum -- anyone can use a human shield, Bugbear Stranglers are just especially nasty about it.

But the rules as we've seen them are binary -- no one can use a human shield, except Bugbear Stranglers, because they have that ability and nothing else really does. You could give it to others, but it might break your game. Have fun.

 

[The Little Raven]

There's no rules for it.

Yet. As Mearls already clearly stated they haven't done unarmed combat rules, it would only make sense that such an unarmed combat-focused move like strangulation or meat shield would be tied to unarmed combat. They can't put every single option in the first books, and since they're not doing an unarmed combatant in the first books, there's really no logical reason to include rules for this move for players until those full unarmed combat rules are released.

 

[Warbringer]

I mentioned in another thread that, based on what Mike Mearls has said, we're probably going to get a set of rules guidelines to cover what Iron Heroes called "Stunts."

I always go the feeling that stunts were going to be the basis for lesser powers (heroic at will stuff)

I hope I'm wrong and they remain free form

 

[Incenjucar]

I'm seeing room for a "Brawler's Handbook."

This is just another of those "wait and see" things. If nothing else, it sounds like an ability that I want to apply to a character class. Maybe with the addition of draining blood from them or setting them ablaze while using them as a shield.

 

[The Little Raven]

Big cats had the "pounce" ability (move and make a full attack)
Big dogs had the "trip" ability (attack + trip attempt)
Crocodiles, I believe, had the "Improved Grab" thing, as did Octopi (but, then again, almost everything in 3e had that ability. )
Apes had the "rend" ability.
Bears could do a whole "bear hug" constriction thing (though that might've been Improved Grab, again).

This is from another thread, but it brings up a very good point.

"Trip" "Pounce" "Rend" and "Improved Grab" were all abilities specifically given to monsters that were not available to players until way later in 3.X's lifespan. What's so wrong with the Bugbear Strangler's meat shield ability being the same way?

 

[Incenjucar]

Perhaps it would have been better listed as "Improved Meat Shield"

 

[DandD]

Well, it being given to us later the same way like in D&D 3.X is wrong in the first place, I'd say. Just because they did it that way back then in 3.X, doesn't mean they should repeat it in 4.0.

But if they're really going to be capable to deliver functional rules later on, that can be forgiven.

 

[Pbartender]

Actually, my 4e grappler should be using better rules with the first core books than my 3.5 grappler was using with the core books.

Based on this single data point, how do you know he won't be?

 

[JohnSnow]

I always go the feeling that stunts were going to be the basis for lesser powers (heroic at will stuff)

I hope I'm wrong and they remain free form

I firmly believe some level of free form stunt mechanic will exist.

Powers are the more reliable, "go-to" abilities that the characters use frequently. For example, King Leonidas is more likely to bash the persian warrior in the face with his shield than to sweep his legs with a low kick. So he gets "Shield Bash" as an "at-will" attack, but if he wants to trip, that's a special "stunt" move.

When the first books release, things like strangling, throwing and the like will, I believe, be handled using the freeform mechanics for stunts. However, I expect the more commonly used maneuvers will instead be implemented as powers for the classes that use them regularly.

The last thing you want is anyone using the same stunt every round. It's cool exciting the first time the rogue evades in such a way that a blow intended for him instead strikes one of his foes. However, it's absurd if everyone can do it, and it quickly gets boring if the rogue does it every single round. So you make it a per-encounter power.

Some things (like throwing flour in your opponent's eyes) can logically be covered by stunts. Some things (like using your opponent as a human shield) could logically be covered by either stunts or powers, depending on how frequently you want to see them in game. For a martial artist character, it's a cool slick move, but if every character in the game can do it, it quickly becomes lame. To me, that sounds like a maneuver you probably want to cover with a stunt mechanic until you get around to presenting detailed and comprehensive unarmed combat rules.

Just my two cents.