Abilities Capped at 20 Won't Work

[VannATLC]

I'm fine with not providing ability-score boosts at certain levels, or magic items that do the same. But ability-score caps are just the lazy-mans solution to the problem.

There does however have to be progression in some form. Attacks get more accurate, more powerful, something. Gaining new "options" is neat, but ultimately pointless if none of the options are explicitly better than the others.

That aside, no growth in abilities directly punishes the non-Vancian. A Wizard doesn't ever need more than an 18 Int, but they keep gaining more spells of increasing power. A fighter who gets no stronger, hits no harder, or more accurately is just a pile of HP, he gets nothing.

Damage increases.
Given the abstraction of HP and hitting with tracks in the first place, doing more damage can be directly analogous to better aim and more force/skill with an attack.

 

[ren1999]

Wow. Over 40 replies to this one. So it is worth going into detail.

In the play-test it says that certain Giants and Immortal types could have ability scores above 20. Which immortal types? I'm just saying that we need to keep the ability scores the same range for all characters and monsters in the game the same. Now 18 should be maximum human strength. But magic items or spell effects could raise that strength to unnatural levels.

When I say cap strength at 30, I'm also saying that ToHit bonuses can not be awarded other than through strength. In fact, no roll will have a bonus that is not the strength modifier. Everything will stack through strength.

That means that a maximum possible strength based attack roll will be STR30(+10) That is 30-10/2=strength modifier +10. That's the flat math we're talking about.

Furthermore, as you all want, ability scores won't increase by leveling-up all the time. In this system I purpose, you will only be able to get +4 to place toward your 6 abilities.

Having a maximum of STR30 would assume that you choose a race and a class that has a strength bonus and that you spend all your ability bonuses of a maximum of 4 to strength and that you have magic items and feats that max to +6 for strength. Other abilities would not have the bonuses from race, class and leveling-up.

I think it would be confusing to give out To-Hit bonuses separately. Tie those in to ability increases.

Once again, any ability modifier will max at +10. That is flat math.

I changed the maximum levels to 30 and the maximum known powers/feats/spells/skills to 30 so that the rules are easier to remember.

 

[Lord Mhoram]

I'm with the old school on this one.

Generate ability scores. Get the racial and/or class bumps.

That's it.

Getting a raise to stats is then a huge deal. Get a permanent +1 STR - huge deal in the game. I really liked that feel that those were unchanging aside from really huge things - Books of Might, Wishes, Decks of many things. Nothing less than a Relic/Artifact could actually raise your ability score.

Magic items grant a flat number (like the classic Gauntlet and Belt mentioned earlier).

I'd like the game to handle it that way. Less fuss to make sure all the numbers work because of vastly different stat scores (like 3rd did).

 

[Filcher]

Heh. A career built around falling down pits, getting scorched by dragons and hammered by giants?

Their stats ought to go DOWN with level.

"Yeah, I used to have an 18 Dex but then I took an arrow in the ..."

 

[ren1999]

Magic items, powers, and feats could be noted to the right of an ability score like this.

Str 21(+5)(Toughness Training+1, Girdle of Ogre str+2)
Str 21/temp23(Bless TempStr+2)

 

[keterys]

Hopefully it maxes at 20, no matter how many bonuses you get.

 

[CleverNickName]

Heh. A career built around falling down pits, getting scorched by dragons and hammered by giants?

Their stats ought to go DOWN with level.

"Yeah, I used to have an 18 Dex but then I took an arrow in the ..."

Hopefully it maxes at 20, no matter how many bonuses you get.

I'm with the old school on this one.

Generate ability scores. Get the racial and/or class bumps.

That's it.

Getting a raise to stats is then a huge deal. Get a permanent +1 STR - huge deal in the game. I really liked that feel that those were unchanging aside from really huge things - Books of Might, Wishes, Decks of many things. Nothing less than a Relic/Artifact could actually raise your ability score.

Magic items grant a flat number (like the classic Gauntlet and Belt mentioned earlier).

I'd like the game to handle it that way. Less fuss to make sure all the numbers work because of vastly different stat scores (like 3rd did).

Why, oh why, can't I give out XP anymore? I agree whole-heartedly.

Caps make the MAX desire worse. Sure it's just a Desire but players will just pump their highest before even touching the others. If there is no level or magical boosts, a BEST array would appear. And players would gravitate to it.

And that is fine, as long as they are willing to settle for lackluster stats in other ability scores. Tanking all of your stats to get an 18 should be possible...but it's a risky proposition, now that skills AND save throws are keyed to every single ability score.

 

[CleverNickName]

Wow. Over 40 replies to this one. So it is worth going into detail.

In the play-test it says that certain Giants and Immortal types could have ability scores above 20. Which immortal types? I'm just saying that we need to keep the ability scores the same range for all characters and monsters in the game the same. Now 18 should be maximum human strength. But magic items or spell effects could raise that strength to unnatural levels.

Well, if we have a cap of 20 + Racial bonus, then all of the dragons and immortals and whatnots could justify their high ability scores by their racial modifiers. "Dragons have a +14 racial bonus to Constitution, therefore, their Con score is capped at 34." Clean and elegant...and most importantly, it prevents a four-foot tall hobbit from becoming as physically strong as a collossal great red wyrm.

Once again, any ability modifier will max at +10. That is flat math.

It is flat, but it is phased about 5 points too high for my tastes. I would prefer an ability modifier cap at +5 (before racial adjustments).

 

[Ti-bob]

I propose no cap at all! I propose to kill a sacred cow, instead!
Why don't have diminising return on abilities scores for bonus? For example:

+0 at 10-11
+1 at 12-13
+2 at 14-15
+3 at 16-17
+4 at 18-20
+5 at 21-24
+6 at 25-29
+7 at 30-35
etc​

In this way, you can continue to increase your score, but your bonus increase more slowly and the result is a flatter curve.
What do you think of that suggestion?

 

[Wiseblood]

I'm all for the 20 cap. It's fairly easy to remove a numerical cap or ignore it. If you do not believe me, just ask 2e's level limits. It will work. I would rather not see level base ability boosts. I do not think they are worth it. They would tend to skew the math at an ever increasing rate. The advancement would either spread the gulf between the haves and the have-nots or be an illusory advance since the game would have them as a base assumption of competence.

Also the larger the modifier the less relevant the d20 becomes.