Abilities in exchange for Experience points: Good or Bad Idea.

[Ysgarran]

A number of books out there (Quintessential Fighter, Path of the Sword and the Legend of the Five Rings) have introduced the idea of feat-like abilities in exchange for spending experience points.

Mongoose in the Quint Fighter calls them 'Fighting Styles'. Fantasy Flight Games has the concept of Legendary classes.

The question is if this is good idea for the game. I'm very suspicious of anything that bypasses the leveling mechanism in this fashion. If my players really demanded something like this I might go for a compromise. If you want to use one of these special abilities then it is going to cost you experience points EVERY time you use that ability.

So, what do people think about these mechanics?

 

[kreynolds]

I think it makes for an interesting house rule. A similar concept is prestige races, but it can be difficult to manage in the long run.

 

[kenjib]

I'm strongly opposed.

1. Breaks the CR system, by making level no longer a reliable gauge of power.

2. People who know more things are usually more experienced, not vice versa.

3. They assume a niche in the rules that are already covered by feats and prestige classes -- both of which are better integrated into the rules. What is the benefit to creating a new mechanic?

4. Detracts from the superior ability that wizards have to create magic items, lessening their unique role in the party.

5. It's a power-up escalation in the system. The more ways of manipulating points you create, the more opportunity for min-maxxing you add. Continued trends in this direction will only make things worse.

6. There is an XP-feedback loop. As you get more powerful relative to your true character level, CR encounters equivalent to your level become easier to defeat. Therefore, you are able to take on more difficult encounters per your level for having these abilities and thus acquire XP at a faster rate. Essentially, you are spending some amount of XP to gain the ability, but the utility of the ability allows you to gain back that XP, and more, at ever increasing rates. For example, a character is 7th level but has bought enough benefits to be as powerful as an 8th level character. He still gets XP as a 7th level character (which is more), despite the fact that he has the effective capability of a 8th level character. As a result, there is no reason not to take many of these abilities, as the XP cost more than pays for itself.

7. The cost of acquiring such abilities remains constant while the XP totals of character increases dramatically. There is no reason not to take a whole bunch of these once you get to high levels. The cost becomes wholly irrelevant and they become, essentially, free power-ups. Compare an ability with a 500xp cost at 1st level to 20th level. 500xp is irrelevant at 20th level but +1BaB is still +1BaB.

In the end, I think that it is a clumsy graft of a point buy mechanic ala GURPS onto a strongly level based game. A more widescale change to the levelling mechanic might make a similar, but different mechanic, more workable (like in four colors to fantasy), but this mechanic alone does not mesh well with the system. From a system design standpoint, I have to say that I find that this mechanic was poorly thought out.

 

[Savage Wombat]

Kenjib:

Not that I'm saying you're wrong, but couldn't the same arguments you make be made against the creation of magic items?

 

[kreynolds]

Not that I'm saying you're wrong, but couldn't the same arguments you make be made against the creation of magic items?

They certainly could, which is why the argument isn't entirely valid. What does make it valid, however, is that magic items have a built-in power control mechanic...money. You can only have so much wealth at a given level. However, with a system that allows you to spend XP for "stuff", you can "buy" whatever you want, without limit. What you could end up with is a 10th level character in a party of 19th level characters. The 10th level guy has been spending so much XP for "stuff" that he hasn't leveled as fast as everyone else. It's also difficult to determine exactly how powerful he is.

If you use an ECL based system for things like this, its not so bad. Ultimately, that's what I did for prestige races. I just went back to the basics.

 

[kenjib]

Kenjib:

Not that I'm saying you're wrong, but couldn't the same arguments you make be made against the creation of magic items?

Several limiting factors on magic item creation:

1. Some of these mechanics do not have GP cost. There are guidelines for the amount of wealth both PCs and NPCs should have relative to their level.

2. Because only some characters can create items, and because of the not insubstantial feat investment required, it is unlikely that more than one person in the party will be doing this. Therefore, if the party wizard (for example) makes lots of magic items he will be penalized by being lower level than his companions. Average party level will remain higher than his current level, meaning that the wizard will not benefit from XP-feedback loop, since XP is still calculated based on the level he could have been had he not created the items. Allowing everyone to do it allows everyone to stay the same level, making this drawback meaningless thanks to the CR guidelines and the XP-feedback loop will kick into full swing.

3. The fact that the magic item creator will be lower level than his compatriots also serves as a psychological limiter. Peer pressure and competition pressure make it uncomfortable to always be lower level than everyone else.

4. The benefits are usually spread throughout the group, as the wizard would probably not make items only for himself. Therefore he pays all of the cost, but gains only some of the benefits and often only through association. This is important, and because of this I am also against house rules I have seen that allow other people to "donate" XP to a magic item creator.

5. The fact that the magic item creator will be lower level than his compatriots also means that he will be less effective against the foes his party faces since he will be facing CR's higher than his level instead of the equality that would happen if everyone had stayed a level behind. Example: He is 6th level, everyone else is 7th. The average party level is 7th so they fight CR 7 monsters for a typical encounter. Because of this, he will have fewer spells and lower level spells (no access to 4th level spells in this case) than he should to face such an encounter, and lack other benefits such as SR penetration, and all the other benefits of levelling.

On a tangent -- I don't like the use of XP in currency for magic items either. I think that, as well, is a kludge in the d20 system at best. That's a different topic though, because while it does have some of these problems, they do not have the same potential for abuse due to the limitations listed above.

 

[kenjib]

They certainly could, which is why the argument isn't entirely valid. What does make it valid, however, is that magic items have a built-in power control mechanic...money. You can only have so much wealth at a given level. However, with a system that allows you to spend XP for "stuff", you can "buy" whatever you want, without limit. What you could end up with is a 10th level character in a party of 19th level characters. The 10th level guy has been spending so much XP for "stuff" that he hasn't leveled as fast as everyone else. It's also difficult to determine exactly how powerful he is.

If you use an ECL based system for things like this, its not so bad. Ultimately, that's what I did for prestige races. I just went back to the basics.

Not just money, but access. See my post above.

 

[kreynolds]

Not just money, but access.

"Access" isn't really applicable, as it is controlled by the DM. DM fiat doesn't really have any place in a discussion about what characters can do with their own resources. "Access" is arbitrary and relies completely upon the whim of the guy with the screen.

See my post above.

Well, in your post, you're assuming that the XP reward system from the DMG is the one being used. Unfortunately, its fault when characters in a party are not of the same level. If the FRCS XP reward system is used, the item creating wizard will catch up to the rest of the party much faster. The "XP-feedback loop" is much smaller.

Also, when a wizard's gear, that he creates himself, only counts against him at half value (creation cost instead of market price), being 5 levels behind isn't so bad when you're armed to the teeth. Sure, there are drawbacks, but it isn't so simple.

 

[officeronin]

Most of the mechanics require both xp and levels (levels in the form of feat pre-requisites, anyway), so I don't have a big problem with it, since it requires both feats and levels.

As far as CR, you could just count the xp for calculating party CR rather than level. However, since this will not be far off, I'm not going to sweat it.

I think they do increase the flavor of the game -- and that makes it worth it, IMO.

OfficeRonin

 

[Crothian]

I like the idea of spending XP for abilities because as a DM I can handle it. It's a wholke new set of options that the PCs cacn use to really creeate the character they want with the abilities they want. I've been using them for a while in a few different games and we've yet to have any problems with them at all. Heck, most of the abilities gained still pale in comparison to magical items and magical spells.