Abilities in exchange for Experience points: Good or Bad Idea.

[Victim]

The chart is a guideline based on average treasure from a mix of enemies. Or you could say that the average treasure per encounter is the change in wealth guideline over 13.33. Same thing. But the chart is A) a guideline, and B) based on a mix of encounters with average treasure. The chart is a great way to bring in new characters with appropriate gear. But in play, things can get a bit messier.

If a group doesn't fight a mixed bag of enemies, then the group's net worth will become distorted. Animals, Dire animals, etc generally have no treasure. A group running around the woods fighting rabid animals isn't going to pick up treasure quickly. Similarly, foes like dragons have triple normal treasure. A group that fights 13 battles with equal CR animals will be dirt poor, while dragonslayers will be rich.

Also, some treasure rolls will result in distorted wealth values. For example, in one WotC adventure, our group found a Helm of Teleportation. At our level, the value of the item exceeded the value from the reccommended wealth by level chart. Obviously, someone was going to be too rich. Getting lucky on the treasure tables a couple of times might also make a group richer than would be expected.

Item creation also distorts the wealth by level values. Let's take a nominally 9th level group. IIRC, 9th level means 36k XP, and 36k GP. What if the wizard decides to craft a bunch of items for himself? Because items are made at half price, he can effectively double his wealth by making all of his own gear. So he has about 72k worth of stuff, but is only level 8 because he spent 1440 XP. Now we've got an 8th level character with wealth that's close to the gear of an 11th level character. Also, he can craft stuff for the rest of the group too. Then the whole group has maybe 60k worth of stuff each because he can't craft everything, and the wizard is still 8th level. There's a big difference between the capabilities of those groups.

Finally, characters can make money without necessarily earning XP. There are plenty of ways for clever people to make money. If someone comes up with a good way for their character to earn some cash and it actually has a good chance of working, I'm not going to say, "Sorry, your character is too low level to have that money." Characters can steal stuff, casters can sell spells or make items, etc. Heck, if my wizard is jaunting around between two distant areas with teleport, he can find out what goods sell for different prices and sell them each trip.

 

[kreynolds]

The chart is a guideline based on average treasure from a mix of enemies.

And its also a guideline for how much money you should have based upon your level. To simply ignore that is not a feasbile argument.

But in play, things can get a bit messier.

That's true. It can indeed get messy. I remember rolling up treasure for 3 ogres and 10 orcs, and I distinctly remember looking at the result and gasping because of how good it was. Man, I never got treasure that good! Well, no, ok, there was that one time when my 1st level fighter got 4,000 copper off of three orcs.

Animals, Dire animals, etc generally have no treasure.

True. Instead they have bone, ivory, hide, teeth, claws, meat, etc, etc. That can be treasure in and of itself.

A group running around the woods fighting rabid animals isn't going to pick up treasure quickly.

Very true. Most adventurers would do that though, simply because it generally doesn't benefit anyone to do so. If a sudden surge of wild animal attacks is part of an adventure though, then that's different. Besides, such a side-trek can actually be a good way to wear down the party's resources a tad, which can be a useful tool.

Similarly, foes like dragons have triple normal treasure. A group that fights 13 battles with equal CR animals will be dirt poor, while dragonslayers will be rich.

No argument there, unless the dragon slayers end up dead, of course.

For example, in one WotC adventure, our group found a Helm of Teleportation. At our level, the value of the item exceeded the value from the reccommended wealth by level chart. Obviously, someone was going to be too rich.

If the DM thought it would be a problem, then the helm shouldn't have been included in the treasure.

Getting lucky on the treasure tables a couple of times might also make a group richer than would be expected.

That's true enough.

Because items are made at half price, he can effectively double his wealth by making all of his own gear. So he has about 72k worth of stuff, but is only level 8 because he spent 1440 XP. Now we've got an 8th level character with wealth that's close to the gear of an 11th level character.

That is a benefit of creating your own items. It is an intentional part of the rules, not a flaw.

Also, he can craft stuff for the rest of the group too. Then the whole group has maybe 60k worth of stuff each because he can't craft everything, and the wizard is still 8th level.

Its a bad idea anyways. You never want to completely rely upon your party spellcaster to make items. Getting gear, whether by purchase or treasure, is still an integral part of the game. There really is little benefit for a spellcaster to make gear for his party members when they can get it made from someone else.

Finally, characters can make money without necessarily earning XP. There are plenty of ways for clever people to make money.

True, and like randomly rolled treasure, a DM has an amount of control over that to keep it from getting out of hand.

If someone comes up with a good way for their character to earn some cash and it actually has a good chance of working, I'm not going to say, "Sorry, your character is too low level to have that money."

Actually, I would hope wouldn't say that. There are many ways for a DM to counter high wealth and high resource levels other than stealing or saying "No.".

Characters can steal stuff...

Which can bring about serious consequences...thus there is a measure of control.

...casters can sell spells or make items...

Someone has to buy them, and even then, someone has to be willing to pay the price that the caster wants, which he/she may not get...thus there is a measure of control.

Heck, if my wizard is jaunting around between two distant areas with teleport, he can find out what goods sell for different prices and sell them each trip.

Very true. However, if you're the one making those items, it will greatly slow down your adventuring career/level advancement. Don't get me wrong though, as I don't frown upon such a thing. I actually think its quite cool if a character has a profession between adventures, and your example is a good one. It can bring in new plot hooks, new NPC contacts, build friendships, create enemies, etc. Lots of useful stuff there.

 

[LokiDR]

The chart is a guideline based on average treasure from a mix of enemies. Or you could say that the average treasure per encounter is the change in wealth guideline over 13.33. Same thing. But the chart is A) a guideline, and B) based on a mix of encounters with average treasure. The chart is a great way to bring in new characters with appropriate gear. But in play, things can get a bit messier.

If you bring new character in at the suggested gold, you should keep the party they are comming in to around the same amount, otherwise that chart has no meaning what-so-ever.

If a group doesn't fight a mixed bag of enemies, then the group's net worth will become distorted. Animals, Dire animals, etc generally have no treasure. A group running around the woods fighting rabid animals isn't going to pick up treasure quickly. Similarly, foes like dragons have triple normal treasure. A group that fights 13 battles with equal CR animals will be dirt poor, while dragonslayers will be rich.

Also, some treasure rolls will result in distorted wealth values. For example, in one WotC adventure, our group found a Helm of Teleportation. At our level, the value of the item exceeded the value from the reccommended wealth by level chart. Obviously, someone was going to be too rich. Getting lucky on the treasure tables a couple of times might also make a group richer than would be expected.

Item creation also distorts the wealth by level values. Let's take a nominally 9th level group. IIRC, 9th level means 36k XP, and 36k GP. What if the wizard decides to craft a bunch of items for himself? Because items are made at half price, he can effectively double his wealth by making all of his own gear. So he has about 72k worth of stuff, but is only level 8 because he spent 1440 XP. Now we've got an 8th level character with wealth that's close to the gear of an 11th level character. Also, he can craft stuff for the rest of the group too. Then the whole group has maybe 60k worth of stuff each because he can't craft everything, and the wizard is still 8th level. There's a big difference between the capabilities of those groups.

Finally, characters can make money without necessarily earning XP. There are plenty of ways for clever people to make money. If someone comes up with a good way for their character to earn some cash and it actually has a good chance of working, I'm not going to say, "Sorry, your character is too low level to have that money." Characters can steal stuff, casters can sell spells or make items, etc. Heck, if my wizard is jaunting around between two distant areas with teleport, he can find out what goods sell for different prices and sell them each trip.

Welcome the fine art of being a DM. If the DM only uses no-treasure enemies, the CR system will fall apart. "It makes sense" to put those creatures against the party doesn't hold water. It is the DM's job to balance the party to make the job fun. If you only hunt wild beasts, want no other encounters, and it would be fun, then you are already house-ruling most of the encounter system of the game.

As for the specifics you mention about money being away from the chart, here are a few tips. First, trading in commodities will not get you gold nearly as fast as adventuring. If a wizard stops adventuring to go into business, the charcter is an NPC. This goes for any character that wants to go into a legitimate business. Professional thieves should earn XP for daring capers, as those are adventures. And the rewards (xp and gp) can be balanced directly by the DM.

As for your example of a wizard doubling their money, there are problems. The GP value of the character should be mostly in items, which shouldn't sell for whole market value. If you sell all of your stuff for cash, so you can make more items and sell it for more cash, you are starting to sound like a business. If you only do this occasionally, you shouldn't have the resources to sell items at full value, and the law of diminishing returns should discourage most.

Bottom Line: characters who fall completely out the genre of D&D can break the system. It is a DM's job to keep the game fun, and breaking the system causes others to not have fun.