Abilities in exchange for Experience points: Good or Bad Idea.

[kreynolds]

Like I said, I buy level adjustments, BECAUSE THEY SCALE WITH LEVEL. XP sacrifices do not.

No. I didn't misunderstand your point. I think you missed the context of my entire argument, which has been made clear a few times over, so I'm not sure how you missed it or misunderstood it. My argument has nothing to do with a buy-everything-you-want-smorgasbord-of-cool-powers without any way to measure your power (and never did), and has everything to do with level adjustments and ECLs, and you're spending XP to do it.

There is absolutely no difference. You spend XP to buy stuff already. There is no denying that at all. When your 5th level fighter hits 6th level, well, you just purchased a level. This is nothing new. Its the same thing but with a new face.

 

[LokiDR]

No. I didn't misunderstand your point. I think you missed the context of my entire argument, which has been made clear a few times over, so I'm not sure how you missed it or misunderstood it. My argument has nothing to do with a buy-everything-you-want-smorgasbord-of-cool-powers without any way to measure your power (and never did), and has everything to do with level adjustments and ECLs, and you're spending XP to do it.

There is absolutely no difference. You spend XP to buy stuff already. There is no denying that at all. When your 5th level fighter hits 6th level, well, you just purchased a level. This is nothing new. Its the same thing but with a new face.

I think there is a difference between spending XP and leveling.

When you level, an amount of experience is no longer available to you. This doesn't mean you don't have it. When you keep the experience and gain a level (or ECL adjustment) you make the next level harder to get. +1 ECL at 19th level has "cost" you a lot more than +1 ECL at 1st level, since 20th level "costs" 19,000 where 2nd level "costs" 1,000.

If the system does not modify your ECL (I don't believe that Path of Sword does, I know Quientiestial Fighter doesn't) you don't see this increasing cost. If your XP total goes down, you don't see that cost over your whole career. 1,000 XP is a small cost compared to your total XP at 20th level. You might level a bit later than every one else (a session or two perhaps) but this is no worse than missing a few sessions.

+1 ECL will cost more than a small amount of time, flat XP won't. The XP disappearing means little at higher levels (so wizards can cast wish without too much of a problem) but ECL will always make you slower. I agree that these systems need to be fit into levels, in some way. But if you are going to equate abilities to levels anyway, why not just make it a PrC?

 

[kreynolds]

I think there is a difference between spending XP and leveling.

Not in my argument, there isn't. Read on and you'll understand why I say that.

When you level, an amount of experience is no longer available to you.

Exactly.

This doesn't mean you don't have it.

Effectively, its means exactly that - you don't have it. You can't use it. You have no access to it. It doesn't do anything but sit there. The result is the same.

When you keep the experience and gain a level (or ECL adjustment) you make the next level harder to get. +1 ECL at 19th level has "cost" you a lot more than +1 ECL at 1st level, since 20th level "costs" 19,000 where 2nd level "costs" 1,000.

Exactly. I have already said as such.

If the system does not modify your ECL (I don't believe that Path of Sword does, I know Quientiestial Fighter doesn't) you don't see this increasing cost. If your XP total goes down, you don't see that cost over your whole career. 1,000 XP is a small cost compared to your total XP at 20th level. You might level a bit later than every one else (a session or two perhaps) but this is no worse than missing a few sessions.

+1 ECL will cost more than a small amount of time, flat XP won't. The XP disappearing means little at higher levels (so wizards can cast wish without too much of a problem) but ECL will always make you slower.

I'm confused. If you agree with me, why are you arguing with me?

I agree that these systems need to be fit into levels, in some way. But if you are going to equate abilities to levels anyway, why not just make it a PrC?

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I swear, but did you read the whole thread? Seriously, I want to know, because I'm quite confused. Read my 7th post and I think you'll understand. I answered your question here before you ever asked it, yet you asked it anyway. See why I'm confused?

 

[LokiDR]

Effectively, its means exactly that - you don't have it. You can't use it. You have no access to it. It doesn't do anything but sit there. The result is the same.

Not quite. +1 ECL at 19th level is a different amount of XP than +1 ECL at first level. 1000 XP is always 1000 XP, and the cost of that loss grows smaller as time goes on. Losing 1000 XP at 2nd level can be half of you total. Losing 1000XP at 20th level is 1/20th of your level.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I swear, but did you read the whole thread? Seriously, I want to know, because I'm quite confused. Read my 7th post and I think you'll understand. I answered your question here before you ever asked it, yet you asked it anyway. See why I'm confused?

I have been reading the thread, and trying to contribute meaningfully. Here is your 7th post:

I've been testing two different methods, and both involve the concept of prestige races. With one, you spend XP and gain special abilities in +1 ECL chunks. In the other, you "purchase" levels in the prestige race, much like you gain levels in a regular class. When you gain a level in a class normally, you don't spend XP, but at the same time, you do. The only XP available for you to spend, in any system, is the XP you have between levels. All of the XP you have from previous levels is already "spent" anyway, so, you spend XP either way.

It (savage species) does(use level progressions), but it does so using level adjustments and ECL. The concept of both level adjustments and ECL is not limited to Savage Species. It's been around since the DMG and the FRCS. Its a very versatile concept.

You argue for using ECL, which is where I agree. The published systems do not use ECL, which I don't agree with. I do not think the two are equivalent. In other words your modification to the published system is what I agree with. Without that modification (which is yours alone) I don't like the systems.

Flat XP for abilities gets problemmatic. Green slime mentioned permancy, which I had mentioned before. I see that as the same problem in a different form. Advancement outside of levels is bad IMO. Gold is equated to level, so that is not so much of an issue.

Does that make more sense?

EDIT: Kreynolds, I was talking about the systems as-published, not with your modifciations.

 

[kreynolds]

+1 ECL at 19th level is a different amount of XP than +1 ECL at first level. 1000 XP is always 1000 XP, and the cost of that loss grows smaller as time goes on. Losing 1000 XP at 2nd level can be half of you total. Losing 1000XP at 20th level is 1/20th of your level.

I never said this wasn't the case, and I don't understand where you're getting the idea that I did.

The published systems do not use ECL, which I don't agree with.

Neither do I, which is why I didn't think you fully read the thread, because I never once supported those systems as written.

I do not think the two are equivalent.

Neither do I, and I never said they were.

In other words your modification to the published system is what I agree with.

That's what I thought. It looked like we fully agree, which is why your arguing with me threw me completely for a loop.

Without that modification (which is yours alone)...

I said it was my modification. I never eluded that those systems use my modifications.

...I don't like the systems.

Neither do I, which is why I don't use them or support them.

Flat XP for abilities gets problemmatic.

Absolutely. That's what I didn't like about the Prestige Races from both Dragon and Bastions.

Does that make more sense?

What makes sense is that you agree with me. What doesn't make sense is how this argument between you and I took place to begin with.

EDIT: Kreynolds, I was talking about the systems as-published, not with your modifciations.

I get you, but I never supported those systems to begin with. You're basically preaching to the choir. I don't like them. I never said I did. I don't support them. I never said I did. They have flaws. I never said they didn't. I specifically stated how I handle those systems, so I thought it was quite clear.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not angry or anything, just confused and mildly frustrated. We agree, that much I know, and already knew, but you were arguing with someone that agrees with your point of view, and that seems a little wonky to me is all.

 

[LokiDR]

I get you, but I never supported those systems to begin with. You're basically preaching to the choir. I don't like them. I never said I did. I don't support them. I never said I did. They have flaws. I never said they didn't. I specifically stated how I handle those systems, so I thought it was quite clear.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not angry or anything, just confused and mildly frustrated. We agree, that much I know, and already knew, but you were arguing with someone that agrees with your point of view, and that seems a little wonky to me is all.

When I responded to you directly, I thought you had changed your stance on the systems and were saying that flat XP==ECL. Sorry for the mix up, you post didn't say that at all.

But on the subject of flat XP for abilites, how do you deal with pemancy? I know you apply ECL for reincarnate.

As far as ECLs go, I haven't found numbers that make sense to me. I have seen a some players get screwed (by lack of HD) and others get overpowered on all the special abilities. Pehaps I will understand it better after I play in a Savage Species game.

 

[Victim]

Gold really isn't related to level. It's related to encounters; treasure varies based on what you fight. A group hunting dragons will be richer than a group that fights dire bears - assuming they avoid additional expenses like ressurections. Encounters with level draining undead can leave a party up on gold but down on XP.

True Ressurection essentially trades gold for XP.

Wish, Limited Wish, and Miracle trade XP for powerful effects.

Magic items cost the same regardless of level.

If an ability costs 1000 XP, then obviously it's more expensive in relative terms for a 5th level character compared to a 19th level character. However, the effect's overall utility has likey gone down as well. A ring of Invisibility is pretty powerful at level 5, but at level 20, it's not that big of deal - everything you fight can probably see Invis otherwise level 8 sorcerers would kill them and when it is useful, it's a trivial resource expenditure anyway. While relative costs decrease as characters go up in level, relative usefulness usually goes down as well. That's why characters need to upgrade their weapons and such - that masterwork sword isn't going to cut it after a while.

 

[kreynolds]

Sorry for the mix up, you post didn't say that at all.

It's cool. I just wanted to make sure that we're on the same page here.

But on the subject of flat XP for abilites, how do you deal with pemancy? I know you apply ECL for reincarnate.

In my experience, Permanency takes care of its problems on its own. Few of my players have used it because its just not worth the XP expendature if it can be dispelled. The only time they've used it is with really minor effects, like darkvision or something.

I have a separate class of magic items in my games, called Melding Items. They accomplish much the same thing as Permanency, but only better. Actually, the accomplish the same thing that Bastions and Dragon were going for, and I wrote them up a long time ago. The magic item merges with you and you gain its abilities as extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural abilities. Most of the time I'll just charge you gold and count it against your character wealth like normal. However, for those melding items that are just really powerful, I'll pop you not only with gold, but with an ECL modifier as well. For an example of powerful melding items, I actually have some that meld with you and apply a template to you. The application can be instantaneous or slowly take place over time.

As far as ECLs go, I haven't found numbers that make sense to me. I have seen a some players get screwed (by lack of HD) and others get overpowered on all the special abilities. Pehaps I will understand it better after I play in a Savage Species game.

The ECL game, like the CR game for new monsters, or the gold piece game for new magic items, can be a tricky business. Its funny, one of the things I really make sure to take into account when figuring up an ability's level adjustment is to ask myself how useful that ability will be four or five levels later. If its not going to be useful by that point, the level adjustment gets reduced. I've found that most spell-like abilities fall into this category. Some special qualities fall into this category as well, such as Spell Resistance. If its value is static, meaning it doesn't increase as you gain hit die/levels, then its level adjustment should be low. Unfortunately, it can't be too low, because at the beginning, its going to be really powerful. After ten or more levels though, its next to worthless. Because of that, I do my best to avoid qualities or abilities that don't improve with level/hit die.

The only real complain I have about the level adjustments given in Savage Species is that they seemed to avoid +0.5 or less adjustments like the plague. If you have adjustments that can be less than +1, you can better fine tune your final ECL. The book even shows that you end up doing it anyway, but why they didn't just go ahead and institute it into the design process instead of the acid testing process, I have no idea.

Like I said, it can be a tricky business.

 

[kreynolds]

Gold really isn't related to level.

It really is though. The amount of wealth you can have is directly related to your given level at the time.

It's related to encounters; treasure varies based on what you fight. A group hunting dragons will be richer than a group that fights dire bears - assuming they avoid additional expenses like ressurections. Encounters with level draining undead can leave a party up on gold but down on XP.

I think you're taking the mentioning of "gold" in this thread out of context. Gold itself has nothing to do with it. Wealth does.

But, in regards to your undead hunting example, the same can be said about a party that hunts rogues. Rogues can steal your gold, and just like lost XP due to draining (most of time), gold can be replaced.

True Ressurection essentially trades gold for XP.

Yup. And XP can be traded for gold. 5gp per 1 XP, to be exact.

Wish, Limited Wish, and Miracle trade XP for powerful effects.

Magic items cost the same regardless of level.

If an ability costs 1000 XP, then obviously it's more expensive in relative terms for a 5th level character compared to a 19th level character. However, the effect's overall utility has likey gone down as well. A ring of Invisibility is pretty powerful at level 5, but at level 20, it's not that big of deal - everything you fight can probably see Invis otherwise level 8 sorcerers would kill them and when it is useful, it's a trivial resource expenditure anyway. While relative costs decrease as characters go up in level, relative usefulness usually goes down as well. That's why characters need to upgrade their weapons and such - that masterwork sword isn't going to cut it after a while.

Well...right, but I'm still not sure where you're going with this. I'm trying to follow along though.

 

[LokiDR]

Gold really isn't related to level. It's related to encounters; treasure varies based on what you fight. A group hunting dragons will be richer than a group that fights dire bears - assuming they avoid additional expenses like ressurections. Encounters with level draining undead can leave a party up on gold but down on XP.

There is a chart in the DMG that equates level to gold, based on a mix of encounters. If a DM doesn't follow this chart to some extent, they can cause a serious balance issue. Low GP parties just aren't as effective as high GP parties. If you ignore this fact, systems like CR break down (even more). If you are a 15th level party that doesn't have any +3 weapons or ability to see invisible creatures, you will have problems.

Gold should be related to level.

True Ressurection essentially trades gold for XP.

Wish, Limited Wish, and Miracle trade XP for powerful effects.

Magic items cost the same regardless of level.

If an ability costs 1000 XP, then obviously it's more expensive in relative terms for a 5th level character compared to a 19th level character. However, the effect's overall utility has likey gone down as well. A ring of Invisibility is pretty powerful at level 5, but at level 20, it's not that big of deal - everything you fight can probably see Invis otherwise level 8 sorcerers would kill them and when it is useful, it's a trivial resource expenditure anyway. While relative costs decrease as characters go up in level, relative usefulness usually goes down as well. That's why characters need to upgrade their weapons and such - that masterwork sword isn't going to cut it after a while.

Is power attack worth less at higher levels than at lower levels? Why is it harder to gain new abilities at higher levels than at lower levels? 1,000 vs 19,000 is a big difference. New abilites that stack should be harder to get at higher levels. A new ring requires giving up an old one, you can't just keep adding rings. But you can keep adding feats, and the abilites are supposed to be continually useful.