Ability Enhancing Spells and Maximum Spell Level...

[Pbartender]

Say, for example, you have a character that has multiclassed into Sorcerer. He has attained 4th level, so he can presumably know one 2nd level spell, which he can cast 3 times per day. However, since this is his secodary class, he only has a Charisma of 11, and so cannot cast spells of 2nd level or higher.

Now, what if he drinks a potion of Eagle's Spendor to raise his Charisma by 1d4+1?

The spell description says, "Sorcerers and bards do not gain extra spells, but the save DCs for their spells increase." Do you think the "no extra spells" pertains only to bonus spells (from high ability scroes), or to the maximum castable level also (can he now cast 2nd level spells)?

 

[Ravellion]

A related question.

I have a Psion in my party who is now reaching 6th level powers, but also soon gains his 3rd 5th level power. His discipline doesn't really list anything any more in his interest, but he has no scores above 14 for any of his non primary stats (He is a Shaper).

However, he empowers and extends Animal Affinities every night before he goes to sleep.

Could he select and manifest 5th level powers from a discipline he does not have a sufficient score in, then use Animal Affinity to use those powers?

Cautious Rav

 

[JChung2003]

Say, for example, you have a character that has multiclassed into Sorcerer. He has attained 4th level, so he can presumably know one 2nd level spell, which he can cast 3 times per day. However, since this is his secodary class, he only has a Charisma of 11, and so cannot cast spells of 2nd level or higher.

Now, what if he drinks a potion of Eagle's Spendor to raise his Charisma by 1d4+1?

The spell description says, "Sorcerers and bards do not gain extra spells, but the save DCs for their spells increase." Do you think the "no extra spells" pertains only to bonus spells (from high ability scroes), or to the maximum castable level also (can he now cast 2nd level spells)?

Since he presumably had only a 11 Charisma when he attained his 4th sorcerer level, he wasn't able to learn any 2nd level spells at that time so although he has the ability to cast 2nd level spells because of eagle's splendor, he doesn't actually know any.

PHB, pg. 50: "To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score of at least 10 + the spell's level."

 

[Pbartender]

Re: Re: Ability Enhancing Spells and Maximum Spell Level...

PHB, pg. 50: "To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score of at least 10 + the spell's level."

Thanks. That's what I missed. One of those times you read something, see it, understand it, but no good reason you completely ignore it.

Of course, I suppose he could always cast extra 1st level spells using the now available 2nd level "per day" slots.

 

[pingpong]

this is one of the areas then that psions are different than sorcerers. strictly according to the rules, you only need a sufficiently high score to manifest a power, not to learn it. so the shaper could learn any 5th level power he wants, but needs the appropriate score of 15 to manifest it.

personally, i think this is kinda cheesy; reminds me of when i played Asheron's Call and you could buff yourself with level 5 spells to cast your level 6 spells. offensively, your pretty weak, but for something like defensive spells, it didnt matter

the same sort of applies here with psions: it probably wouldnt be a good idea to buff your score to manifest offensive powers, since your save DCs will be lower than powers from your primary discipline, but for protective type powers, it shouldnt matter.

its still cheesy though

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Re: Ability Enhancing Spells and Maximum Spell Level...

Of course, I suppose he could always cast extra 1st level spells using the now available 2nd level "per day" slots.

Those slots are already available.

A 10th level wizard with an 11 Int can use his 2 5th level slots to prepare Magic Missiles. He can even prepare Double-Empowered Magic Missiles.

With the exception of Heighten Spell, metamagic feats do not raise the minimum ability score requirement for a spell. Magic Missile requires an 11 Int to cast, whether you use a 1st, 5th, or 13th level slot, and whether or not it's Extended, Stilled, Silent, Maximized, and Empowered.

Similarly, a sorcerer with 11 Cha could spontaneously cast his 1st level spells out of any slot, with any Metamagic feat (except Heighten) applied.

-Hyp.

 

[Pbartender]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Ability Enhancing Spells and Maximum Spell Level...

Those slots are already available.

A 10th level wizard with an 11 Int can use his 2 5th level slots to prepare Magic Missiles. He can even prepare Double-Empowered Magic Missiles.

With the exception of Heighten Spell, metamagic feats do not raise the minimum ability score requirement for a spell. Magic Missile requires an 11 Int to cast, whether you use a 1st, 5th, or 13th level slot, and whether or not it's Extended, Stilled, Silent, Maximized, and Empowered.

Similarly, a sorcerer with 11 Cha could spontaneously cast his 1st level spells out of any slot, with any Metamagic feat (except Heighten) applied.

-Hyp.

Guh.

I hadn't even thought of that. I had assumed that if you couldn't learn or cast a certain level of spell, then the perday slot wouldn't even be available.

That'll be some consolation to a player of mine... The question is in regards to a Druid's Awakened Raven animal companion. It has taken several levels in Bard, and soon will have its Charisma raised from 9 to 10. It'll be able to cast a handful of 0-level spells, but will have a couple of 1st level spell slots per day.

 

[Pax]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Ability Enhancing Spells and Maximum Spell Level...

Those slots are already available.

A 10th level wizard with an 11 Int can use his 2 5th level slots to prepare Magic Missiles. He can even prepare Double-Empowered Magic Missiles.

With the exception of Heighten Spell, metamagic feats do not raise the minimum ability score requirement for a spell. Magic Missile requires an 11 Int to cast, whether you use a 1st, 5th, or 13th level slot, and whether or not it's Extended, Stilled, Silent, Maximized, and Empowered.

Similarly, a sorcerer with 11 Cha could spontaneously cast his 1st level spells out of any slot, with any Metamagic feat (except Heighten) applied.

-Hyp.

That is not precisely correct, Hyper.

If you have a Wizard with an 11 Intelligence, they cannot use their 5th level slots for 2xEmpowered Magic Missiles. For "vanilla" Magic Missiles, yes. But not for metamagicked versions.

PHB page 78 (emphasis mine):
Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at it's original level even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell.

So, a 2xEmpowered Magic Missile, while it operates as a 1st level spell, it is prepared and subsequently cast just like any 5th-level spell (meaning, you need a 5th level spell slot and an intelligence of 15+ ...!).

Why, you ask? Well, simple: to even PREPARE a 5th level spell, you need a 15 Intelligence. TO subsequently CAST said spell, you still need that 15 intelligence.

And remember, metamagicked spells are prepared and cast as their higher, metamagic-adjusted levels.

Note that what I have described is neither supported nor contradicted by the FAQ ... but is perfectly consistent with the PHB itself -- if read literally.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ability Enhancing Spells and Maximum Spell Level...

Note that what I have described is neither supported nor contradicted by the FAQ ...

Well, you're half-right. It's not supported by the FAQ.

Main FAQ p24:

Say an 11th-level wizard has an Intelligence of 15. Can
the wizard prepare a teleport spell (5th-level spell) enhanced
with the Silent Spell metamagic feat and thus use a 6th-level
spell slot that the character (thanks to low Intelligence)
could not use to prepare a 6th-level spell?
Using a metamagic feat makes the spell occupy a spell slot
of higher level, but it does not actually change the spell’s level,
except for Heighten Spell, which does increase the spell’s level.
So long as the wizard in question has enough Intelligence to
cast the spell at its actual level (15 for the 5th-level teleport
spell) the character can cast the metamagic spell. Note that the
character doesn’t have to use metamagic to use the 6th-level
spell slot; the character can simply prepare any lower level
spell in the slot.

-Hyp.

 

[Pax]

Odd, I missed that entirely -- despite going through the FAQ three times, looking for JUST that sort of thing.

And I have to say ... it makes absolutely 0 sense.

If an Empowered Magic Missile is considered to be comparable in power to, say, a Fireball (both require 3d level spell slots to prepare and cast) ... then why would the one that uses a metamagic be any LESS restricted on the bases of the spellcasting attribute in question?

...

Well, at least IMC, I'm sticking with what I described earlier. That bit from the FAQ sounds like a Customer Service (non-)answer, not like good rules.