Ability Modifiers and "Monster" Races

[Rechan]

Not sure if this will help anyone, but I was reminded of something from the 1E PHB concerning half-orcs. It had a little blurb about how only about 10% or so of all half-orcs were sufficiently human enough (i.e. intelligent and possibly civilized enough) to be able to function in society, or something like that.

I know that's not the precise wording but the point I'm trying to make is that, for the generally less 'civilized' races such as goblins, only a small percentage of them are 'PC caliber'. So your average goblin will be uncouth and such, deserving of a low charisma, but those that are PCs are the ones that have the drive and personality to become adventurers and possibly one day challenge the gods.

Sure, I can buy that. After all, PCs are supposed to be purely exceptional. They are the only guys around doing what they're doing, they get to break the rules of the world because they're the Protagonists.

Makes sense that a goblin PC or whatnot would be a paragon of the goblin peoples.

 

[pawsplay]

Should a goblin be able to charm your socks off, inspire you with noble words, and persuade you to love your neighbor? Clearly not. But should a goblin be able to make you nervous and unsure of yourself, manipulate you with clever lies, and sting your temper with cutting insults? Absolutely.

Actually, I imagine I would just stab them at some point. I don't see goblins as great talkers. They aren't intimidating, and they have too little to offer to be great deceivers.

The real problem I see is that humans are numerically inferior to probably 95% of other races. I have no problem with the PH races having bonuses, but someone turned off their brain when they decided the monster races should all work the same way. Goblins are a good candidate for a +2 Dex and some nice perk rather than two good stats.

 

[The Hitcher]

Wow, some people really get upset about the strangest things. The monster PC rules fall into the category of 'extremely optional' rules. They are rather cursory and incomplete, and should be modified to your heart's content.

That said, I can easily buy a PC goblin getting a Charisma bonus. PCs are supposed to be exceptional examples of their species, and any goblin that actually has the guts to go adventuring probably has a more personality than a typical gobbo. If you don't want YOUR particular goblin to have a high Cha, assign an 8 to it or something.

 

[Forrester]

. . . and it's Goblins being more charismatic than Elves.

Suck it long and suck it hard, goblin-hater

 

[Greenfaun]

Note to self: do not use goblins in an example when trying to spark discussion about a broader topic. Goblins are so cool that once you bring them up, nobody wants to talk about anything else.

 

[fissionessence]

I like that there are no penalties to ability scores. I think goblins (as an example) should still have the lowest ability score from their array applied to Charisma, but a PC goblin shouldn't be bound by that restriction. A PC is free to 'fit the mold' of a goblin and apply his 8 or whatever to Cha, but if he wants to play a goblin warlock, I wouldn't want a mechanical dissuasion to that concept.

While I don't have a problem with the lack of ability score penalties, I do have a problem with the homogenization of racial power levels. I for one had no problem with ECLs and level adjustments and the like, and I'm a bit put off by the idea that an out-of-the-box minotaur is balanced equally against an out-of-the-box human (or a minotaur fighter 5 vs human fighter 5, etc.). A standard minotaur should be stronger than a human, as should a drow, and so on. Plus, no templates for PCs? I can feel my joy starving from a lack of character-option food.

~

 

[Blackeagle]

In more recent pop-culture, Harry Potterverse goblins are short, ugly, cantankerous, and rich. Spiderwick Chronicles goblins are nearly feral, ugly, and mean. Even Labyrinth goblins are mostly a bad lot, and David Bowie was the only one who wasn't physically deformed.

How about Redcloak in The Order of The Stick? Or Big Ears, Complains of Names and Thaco in Goblins?

Big Ears: What is wrong with you!? How can you let your sone die!?
Thaco: We are not jumping off this roof to our deaths!
<points at adjacent roof>
Thaco: We're jumping off that roof to our deaths. It's got a tree.

 

[Sashi]

The fact that a 80 lbs. halfling can have the same strength as a 210 lbs. dwarf is absurd in my book. Pure stupid.

Then go to GURPS or something, where strength scores have different meanings depending on size (a Rabbit with STR 5 is different from a Horse with STR 5). In 3.5 you could easily have a dwarf wizard (str 8) sharing the table with a Halfling Paladin (Str 16). It was even MORE possible to have a high str halfling sitting at a table with a low STR dwarf before 3E, since there weren't stat mods. Stat penalties/bonuses were a 3E invention, before that there were simply minimum stats that you had to have to play certain races (dwarves had a minimum con score, etc).

It's easier to balance pure bonuses than bonuses and penalties. To whit, note the balance between the Half Orc and Orc in 3.5 (a balance that slides pretty heavily towards Orc). If there's a large bonus to one stat, and a penalty to another, then the player will take that race, dive into the class that relies on the stat with the bonus, and cheese his way to victory.

If, instead, you say that +2 to 2 stats is the "standard" you're given a lot more leeway in what you can use as a PC race. Tiefling, Minotaur, Bugbear, the Gith, Gnolls, Drow, are all present in the MM as playable races without level adjustment. This is huge (and I love that Warforged can have the +2 STR +2 CON that they've always demanded as "ultimate soldiers")

 

[Sashi]

High Goblin Charisma:

In D&D mythology Goblins have had populations very close to human populations, but on less territory. When you've got 30 goblins living in a cave the size of a small cottage, they've got to be good at establishing dominance over each other and working together (Goblin/Hobgoblin), or they become good at eating each other (Bugbear).

Why does it surprise you that one of the races most famous for it's group tactics has a charisma bonus?

 

[Greenfaun]

How about Redcloak in The Order of The Stick? Or Big Ears, Complains of Names and Thaco in Goblins?

I love both those comics, but the fact that they are both explicitly based on D&D makes using them as an example sort of recursive.

Also, both of those comics go out of their way to twist and satirize the conventional assumptions within D&D. Something as global as racial features should UPHOLD the conventional assumptions within D&D, in my opinion.

And this sort of brings me to my next point. A couple people have argued that heroic goblins can be charismatic and a bonus to charisma doesn't mean you have to make a high-charisma character, and therefore the bonuses are fine. I don't think that conclusion is right, because I don't think that's how racial bonuses work. (should work?)

For instance, I think nearly everyone would disagree that the dwarf racial bonuses should be +2 Dex, +2 Cha. Why? Why couldn't you assume that any dwarf who wants to leave the caves is unusually agile and personable? It's not like you couldn't still make a high-con, high-wisdom dwarf if that's how you want your dwarf to be. It doesn't mean the stats are wrong.

See, dwarves shouldn't have +2 Dex, +2 Cha, and halflings shouldn't have +2 Str, +2 Con, because those aren't the stereotypical attributes of the race. Of course individuals can vary, I wouldn't disallow a brawny halfling fighter in my game any more than I'd disallow a charismatic goblin, but our shared assumptions about what a race is good at and bad at is exactly what should influence their bonuses (or lacks thereof)

See, even if it only applies to PC races, it still changes things. If you compare everyone who makes an elf PC to everyone who makes a Goblin PC, and assume that they choose classes that don't benefit from their racial bonuses in approximately the same proportions, then the goblin PC's as an aggregate are still going to have more charisma than the elves.

To put it another way, should all the heroic, unusual goblins in the world be exactly as good (on average) at manipulating, deceiving, seducing, and inspiring other sophonts as all the heroic, unusual drow in the world? I say no, drow should have an edge at that sort of thing, because it''s, well, drow-ier. In the rules I've seen, the only difference is drow get a racial bonus to intimidate. Other than that, they're mechanically equal. And don't say drow are higher-level monsters, because remember we're only talking about the rules for PC's.

Now, I hope I haven't sidetracked this thread even further by dragging the drow fans and haters into the brawl.

Thanks to everyone who answered the poll, though. It seems I'm outside the mainstream on this one.