Ability Modifiers and "Monster" Races

[fissionessence]

A couple people have argued that heroic goblins can be charismatic and a bonus to charisma doesn't mean you have to make a high-charisma character, and therefore the bonuses are fine. I don't think that conclusion is right, because I don't think that's how racial bonuses work.

Woah. I made my argument based on the assumption that the issue was that goblins didn't have a penalty to Charisma. Based on what you're saying, though, they actually have a bonus to it? That's totally different from what I thought

I just checked the MM, and they do indeed have a bonus for player characters . . . whereas the actual goblin entries have Charisma as their lowest score. That doesn't really add up for me, so I totally agree that they shouldn't have a bonus.

Then that leaves the question of where to put the other bonus . . . Wisdom, I guess? Str, Con and Int all seem out of the question, and Dex already has the +2.

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[DJCupboard]

Then that leaves the question of where to put the other bonus . . . Wisdom, I guess? Str, Con and Int all seem out of the question, and Dex already has the +2.

Now that's a pardigm shift on the concept of a dump stat, how fitting that the example came up over a charisma quibble!

Designer 1:"Well, where are we going to put the goblin PCs 2nd stat bonus? They're clearly dextrous,, but what else are they good at? They're not strong, not resilient, not all that bright or introspective..."

Designer 2:"Eh; toss it in charisma, no one uses that anyway."

 

[Greenfaun]

Then that leaves the question of where to put the other bonus . . . Wisdom, I guess? Str, Con and Int all seem out of the question, and Dex already has the +2.

I dunno, I'd be happy with +2 Dex, +2 Int. It's still a little weird, but it's a rare combination and it works for them being good at crafts and traps and things like that.

Of course, what I really want to give them is something along the lines of +4 dex, -2 Str, and a speed bonus. Oh well. Wrong edition.

 

[lutecius]

Not sure if this will help anyone, but I was reminded of something from the 1E PHB concerning half-orcs. It had a little blurb about how only about 10% or so of all half-orcs were sufficiently human enough (i.e. intelligent and possibly civilized enough) to be able to function in society, or something like that.

Even those half-orcs had a -2 charisma penalty, the new goblins have a bonus.

Should a goblin be able to charm your socks off, inspire you with noble words, and persuade you to love your neighbor? Clearly not. But should a goblin be able to make you nervous and unsure of yourself, manipulate you with clever lies, and sting your temper with cutting insults? Absolutely.

The eladrin warlord keeps his troops going by shouting, "For Pelor! We will never surrender! Stand your ground, men! Evil cannot triumph while we hold fast!"

The goblin warlord keeps his troops going by snarling, "Fight, you miserable worm-eating yellow-bellied scum! My grandmother hits harder than that! Now rip out their livers and gouge out their eyes, and you'll have some meat for dinner tonight!"

Neither eladrins nor elves have a charisma bonus (which is in itself all kind of wrong when dorky alien dragonborns and hell-spawns with "centuries of other races’ distrust and outright hatred", "in a world that often fears and resents them" do.)
I’m not saying an individual goblin with high charisma shouldn’t be able to do that. My question was whether being a goblin should by default be an advantage in these situations.

Why does it surprise you that one of the races most famous for it's group tactics has a charisma bonus?

Because goblins are explicitly said to be disorganised when left to their own devices (i.e.without hob leadership)? Or because working as a group has nothing to do with force of personality or persuasiveness?

Sure, I can buy that. After all, PCs are supposed to be purely exceptional. They are the only guys around doing what they're doing, they get to break the rules of the world because they're the Protagonists.

Makes sense that a goblin PC or whatnot would be a paragon of the goblin peoples.

Precisely. A paragon embodies the qualities of a race. I don’t see charisma as one of them.
What’s the point of racial bonus if they don’t somehow reflect the race’s general tendencies?

Anyway these traits are first provided to help NPC creation. They can also be used as guidelines for PCs.
Which brings me back on topic. These racial traits and powers, balanced or not, don’t really matter. The whole chapter is rushed (the goblin bonus could just be a typo) and a bit useless. The DM might as well figure out these things himself. The powers are cut straight from the monster entries and "more in line with monster powers than with PC powers". I’m not even sure the write-ups are balanced with each other.