Ability Scores 2.0

[Einlanzer0]

View attachment CharacterSheet.pdf - Character Sheet for anyone interested in playtesting. Feedback welcome.

This revision is not designed to make the game more complex, it's instead designed to streamline and clarify some of the categorical buckets we have, and also to mechanically rebalance ability scores relative to one another. Every stat should be attractive to every character, which makes character building more fun and the resulting characters more diverse. The biggest change is the addition of two new attributes - Agility (separated from Dex) and Thaumaturgy (new spellcasting stat for all spellcasters).

The list of skills has been slightly revised, but otherwise they work as in the normal rules. Most of the other changes are related to optional mechanics found in the DMG. I'll go into more detail about the new and modified mechanics below.

The first three (Str, Dex, Tha) can be considered primary stats since they govern attack and damage rolls for all characters. The next 5 (Agi, Con, Int, Wis, Cha) can be considered beefed-up ancillary stats. Associated skills are listed first, followed by other mechanics, then by types of checks made with the stat.

Note that I will be releasing an updated character sheet reflecting these changes in the near future.

Strength - Physical might
Athletics
attack rolls (standard melee and heavy thrown) and damage rolls (all physical attacks)
Lifting & carrying capacity
resistance to injury

Dexterity - fine motor skills, hand-eye coordination
Legerdemain
attack rolls (light melee and standard ranged)
critical hit threat range
nimble movements and tool usage

Thaumaturgy - channeling magics
Arcana
Attack/Damge rolls (all spells)
Save DCs (all spells)
detecting or interacting with anything magical

Constitution - vigor and health
Endurance
Focus
HP per level
HP on Rest
maintaining concentration
resistance to disease and pain tolerance

Agility - speed, reflexes, and grace
Acrobatics
Stealth
Initiative
AC when not wearing heavy armor
reflex and balance checks

Intellect - reasoning, knowledge, and creativity
Culture (covers world history, culture, religion, and miscellaneous trivia)
Mechanics
Medicine
Investigation
Tactics
solving puzzles and recalling information
prepared spells for Wizards

Wisdom - empathy, patience, judgment, and diligence
Composure
Insight
Nurturing
Survival
Perception
Sanity*
foraging and exploration
clarity checks
prepared spells for Clerics and Druids

Charisma - likability, confidence, and influence
Deception
Intimidation
Performance
Persuasion
Inspiration
Reknown/Piety*
offensive willpower and general communication checks
prepared spells for Paladins


*Indicates optional/setting specific mechanics

 

[Einlanzer0]

Crit threat range is now affected by Dexterity. You apply half of your dex bonus, rounded down, to increase your threat range. I.e. a +2 dex means you have a crit threshold of 19. +4 dex means 18. This stacks with the Champion's increased threat range. Note that this applies to all types of attacks, since even heavier weapons and spell channeling benefit from higher dexterity. Conversely, light weapons still benefit from higher strength, so they will use str for damage rolls instead of dex as in 3rd edition. In effect, this makes Str + Dex (and Tha + Dex) builds a more legitimate choice than they are currently, without overshadowing other options.

Initiative and unarmored AC have been moved to Agility, along with with Acrobatics and Stealth. Dex is overloaded in core 5e, and this separation makes conceptual sense since Agility and Dexterity actually have very little to do with each other. An animal may have very high agility but poor dexterity, while a paraplegic may have high dexterity but poor agility.

Knowledge skills have been refined. Culture now includes all general knowledge skills (history, religion, etc). Arcana has been moved to Thaumaturgy. Medicine has moved from Wis to Int, and Mechanics is a new knowledge category for Int. Non spellcasters can train in Arcana, but they do not use an ability modifier for it. Arcana is only used to directly detect or interact with magic. General knowledge surrounding magic falls under the Culture skill.

Perception is no longer a skill. It's always passive, and is simply 10+wis mod, but it's often also modified by race/species. Active perception checks have been rolled into either Investigation (Int) or Focus (Con). Wisdom remains an important stat for its role in perception checks, particularly to avoid being surprised or ambushed. Spotting or listening may just be a passive perception check, or it might also involve a focus check, depending on the difficulty. If Sanity is used, this becomes an expansion for Wisdom.

Nurturing is generalized skill that I'm still trying to flesh out, but I'm imagining it as a combination of Animal Handling, general support, and long-term caregiving. Note that knowledge of Medicine has moved to Int, so Int will (appropriately, IMO) play the bigger role in treatment of injury and disease.

Tactical Points replace Hero Points, but use the effect of Inspiration in the core rules. All characters have 2 + int modifier max TP. They are used to gain advantage or eliminate disadvantage on any d20 roll. Max TP can be permanently sacrificed to permanently gain a +2 to any skill (1 point for 1 skill). They recover at 1/2 on long rest, like HD do. This is a significant mechanical expansion for Int into the realm of combat, since Int is widely regarded as the biggest dump stat in 5e.

Inspiration remains, but it uses the effect of Hero Points and Bardic Inspiration, while the original effect of Inspiration is given to TP. It grants an additional d6 to any die roll. When Inspiration is awarded by the DM, all of the recipient's allies can make a d20 roll using the recipient's Charisma modifier. If they pass DC 15, they also become inspired. Inspiration is still binary - you either have it or you don't. No stacking. Inspiration is a mechanical expansion to Charisma into the realm of combat so it competes better with other stats.

I'll probably leave Honor as it is in the DMG. It'll just be an extra stat that may or may not see use depending on the campaign setting. I've added a spot for it by alignment on the character sheet. If I ever play an Eastern style campaign I might try to refine it.

I'm heavily modifying Sanity. I think it should be a resource based on Wisdom rather than its own ability score. Currently, I'm thinking 10 + wisdom modifier + proficiency bonus for Sanity Points. Sanity damage doesn't scale the same way HP does - most sanity damage will be in the range of 1d4 to 1d8 regardless of level. You normally defend against Sanity loss using the Composure skill, but other options are possible (such as making a Cha save). Anytime you lose any sanity, you take a short term madness. If you reach 0 sanity, you take a long term madness. If you take sanity damage while at 0 sanity, you acquire an indefinite madness. I use the slow natural healing rules (HD is only recovered at 1 + con mod on long rest), so I have sanity recovering at a rate of 1 + wisdom mod per long rest (minimum of 1). This needs a lot of playtesting and will probably need refinement. Consult the DMG for rules on madness. My current version of Sanity is balanced around the assumption of it seeing only situational usage. Depending on how liberally Sanity attacks are used, Wisdom could become disproportionately important as an ability score and these rules will need modification.

Renown and Piety, if used, work just like in the DMG except your rank is modified by your Charisma score.

That's all!

 

[Xeviat]

On Critical Range: +1 to critical range is functionally equivalent to +1 to hit. If you hit on 10 out of 20 attack rolls and crit on 1 of 20, you're going to be dealing 11/20 damage. If you hit on 9 out of 20 attack rolls and crit on 2 of 20, you're still dealing 11/20 damage. Assuming attacks scaled to 4 at 6, 11, and 16, +1 damage is somewhat equivalent to +1 to hit (for the fighter only really, if no one else were to get multiple attacks). I don't think your crit range has to be halved; this only works if crits are x2 damage (which they are with spells and functionally are with sneak attack), but since crits don't multiply modifiers in 5E, they're a little weaker.

Are saving throws the same? A save for each stat?

I like where you're going with this. It's interesting. I would have made Dex to hit and Str to damage, then have Str requirements on larger weapons to magnify the damage, but your critical range is an interesting way to redo that. Dex is going to be a dump stat for a lot more people, though possibly less so because Ray casters may like the critical range.

I personally prefer having separate mental stats as magic stats for the casters, as it encourages certain mentalities. You still have that a little with the prepped spells, but what is going to encourage Arcane Tricksters, Bards, Eldritch Knights, Rangers, Sorcerers, and Warlocks to focus on anything but Thaumaturgy?

 

[Einlanzer0]

On Critical Range: +1 to critical range is functionally equivalent to +1 to hit. If you hit on 10 out of 20 attack rolls and crit on 1 of 20, you're going to be dealing 11/20 damage. If you hit on 9 out of 20 attack rolls and crit on 2 of 20, you're still dealing 11/20 damage. Assuming attacks scaled to 4 at 6, 11, and 16, +1 damage is somewhat equivalent to +1 to hit (for the fighter only really, if no one else were to get multiple attacks). I don't think your crit range has to be halved; this only works if crits are x2 damage (which they are with spells and functionally are with sneak attack), but since crits don't multiply modifiers in 5E, they're a little weaker.

Are saving throws the same? A save for each stat?

I like where you're going with this. It's interesting. I would have made Dex to hit and Str to damage, then have Str requirements on larger weapons to magnify the damage, but your critical range is an interesting way to redo that. Dex is going to be a dump stat for a lot more people, though possibly less so because Ray casters may like the critical range.

I personally prefer having separate mental stats as magic stats for the casters, as it encourages certain mentalities. You still have that a little with the prepped spells, but what is going to encourage Arcane Tricksters, Bards, Eldritch Knights, Rangers, Sorcerers, and Warlocks to focus on anything but Thaumaturgy?

Thanks for the feedback.

Saving throws are the same for the most part. They're already so subject to DM arbitration that I think it works well as is.

As you said, many classes still get secondary benefits from various stats as a bit of incentive to play thematically appropriate characters. Many of the ones you mentioned do, including clerics, wizards, druids, bards, rangers, and paladins. I'm less worried about sorcerers, arcane trickster and eldritch knight (sorcerers should be a highly varied class, while at and ek already face high levels of mad). The only one I'd be initially worried about is the warlock. For them in particular, it might be worthwhile to introduce some way for charisma to benefit them. But, then, I'm not even really sure that's necessary. I mean how many demonic pactmakers are charismatic anyway =P?

I considered letting the full Dex bonus apply to crit range. It's likely something I'll playtest to see if it feels too strong, but considering everything that was stripped away from Dex (including damage for light weapons), it might make more sense to do this. After all, a 20 Dex would still only give you a 25% crit chance, and crits, as you said, are a bit weaker in this edition than they have been in the past.

 

[Einlanzer0]

I updated the original post with a character sheet.

Here's my current thinking on Sanity (will probably need to be refined over time) -

Characters have sanity points equal to 1/2 level + 1/2 wisdom score. Sanity is intended to be used very situationally, as outlined in the DMG. Resisting sanity loss is usually a Wis or Cha check, but this can vary. You acquire a short term madness anytime you lose any sanity. If you lose half of your sanity, you gain a long term madness. If you hit 0 sanity, you take an indefinite madness. These can stack. SP replenishes at a rate of 1d4 per long rest as long as you do not have indefinite madness. Taking any sanity damage while at 0 sanity points results in a long term madness. You can have more than one short or long term madness at a time, but only one indefinite madness.

 

[Xeviat]

I considered letting the full Dex bonus apply to crit range. It's likely something I'll playtest to see if it feels too strong, but considering everything that was stripped away from Dex (including damage for light weapons), it might make more sense to do this. After all, a 20 Dex would still only give you a 25% crit chance, and crits, as you said, are a bit weaker in this edition than they have been in the past.

The only time I think you'll run into any issues is if your rules end up generating a lot of High Str/High Dex characters. But that's a concept that is currently not well supported, and such a character would have some big weaknesses in defenses.

The only other issue I'm seeing is that having 8 stats means more points to be gained from dump stats. This could prove problematic, you'll want to keep an eye on it. You've added worthwhile points to all the mentals, but at the very least non-casters are gaining another potential dump stat.

 

[Blue]

Random thoughts off the top of my head.

Are you generating 8 sets of stats and then applying? With 3 stats being mroe important then the others perhaps it's better to buy/roll the first three, and then the next 5.

I like how you break weapon hit and damage up.

All casters using Thamaturgy makes multiclassing easier since you always have the right stat.

For all pure non-casters, Thamaturgy is a complete dump stat. If it also had use for non-casters that makes it more interesting, such as resistance to magic damage much like you have str being resistance to injury, or things like bonus to HPs recovered with healing potions. Maybe even turn attunement slots to 1 + Tha mod. But that heavily favors casters.

On the other hand, half-casters get hosed or classes like Valor Bards get hosed. They may need good Str, Dex, Tha plus Con and other secondary attributes.

Pure casters get to ignore 2 of the big 3 in a number of cases. Don't like that. Strength is a big odd with "resistant to injury" - are you picturing DR like Heavy Armor Master off it?

Dex is corner-cased. Some characters it's really big, others can just ignore it. I think it's been nerfed too hard across the general populous. I do like that even pure archers still need Str for damage.

Really dislike "half dex mod". Mods are already low, and it's more math. More importantly it makes no difference from 18 to 20.

I think I'd dump Agility. AC can go back to dex so it's got something that useful to all classes, and make Init under Int for quickness of thought and ability to adapt to changing situations.

Does archers needs Str + Dex but Warlocks just needing Tha for Eldritch Blast make the latter to powerful, especially after a few ASIs? Or weaker since they aren't getting the crit range boost?

What are you picturing in terms of saves? Adding in new stats means you need to look at all spells and monsters that force them. Well, if you toss Agile and not make Tha have any saves against it but instead make it a resistance to magic damage you sidestep the problem.

 

[Einlanzer0]

Random thoughts off the top of my head.

Are you generating 8 sets of stats and then applying? With 3 stats being mroe important then the others perhaps it's better to buy/roll the first three, and then the next 5.

I like how you break weapon hit and damage up.

All casters using Thamaturgy makes multiclassing easier since you always have the right stat.

For all pure non-casters, Thamaturgy is a complete dump stat. If it also had use for non-casters that makes it more interesting, such as resistance to magic damage much like you have str being resistance to injury, or things like bonus to HPs recovered with healing potions. Maybe even turn attunement slots to 1 + Tha mod. But that heavily favors casters.

On the other hand, half-casters get hosed or classes like Valor Bards get hosed. They may need good Str, Dex, Tha plus Con and other secondary attributes.

Pure casters get to ignore 2 of the big 3 in a number of cases. Don't like that. Strength is a big odd with "resistant to injury" - are you picturing DR like Heavy Armor Master off it?

Dex is corner-cased. Some characters it's really big, others can just ignore it. I think it's been nerfed too hard across the general populous. I do like that even pure archers still need Str for damage.

Really dislike "half dex mod". Mods are already low, and it's more math. More importantly it makes no difference from 18 to 20.

I think I'd dump Agility. AC can go back to dex so it's got something that useful to all classes, and make Init under Int for quickness of thought and ability to adapt to changing situations.

Does archers needs Str + Dex but Warlocks just needing Tha for Eldritch Blast make the latter to powerful, especially after a few ASIs? Or weaker since they aren't getting the crit range boost?

What are you picturing in terms of saves? Adding in new stats means you need to look at all spells and monsters that force them. Well, if you toss Agile and not make Tha have any saves against it but instead make it a resistance to magic damage you sidestep the problem.

A few things to keep in mind here -

I did rescind on halving the modifier. I agree the full Dex modifier should apply to the crit range. Separating Agility from Dexterity was one of the main reasons I did this, as I do conceptually believe they should be separate. Yeah, it'll be a bit tougher to have maximum damage, maximum to-hit/crit rate, and maximum AC, but that's kind of the point. By foregoing some of those options, you can also have a large supply of Tactics points to control advantage, or be able inspire your comrades to greater heights. The resulting characters are more diverse and more engaging.

Thaumaturgy being a dump stat for non-spellcasters is intentional, though it's probable I'll add some some minor mechanical benefit for those who want it and/or plan to multiclass. Str builds in these rules work just like in RAW and are equivalent to Tha builds. Dex builds are a little different now, but I don't think they're weaker. I think a high Dex, low Str build will function mostly as it does in RAW (actually, it'll probably be more powerful with certain classes) , whereas a high Str + high Dex build will have superior damage output to anything in RAW, with the drawback being that you will sacrifice a lot of utility and/or defense to get that. Ditto for Dex/Tha builds.

So, I guess you can look at it like this:

Str is equal to Tha and both are primary stats. Thamaturgy users are very unlikely to want or need Str unless they're hybrids, just as nonspellcasters don't have much use for Tha.
Dex is both a primary and a supporting stat. It's a primary stat in a light fighter/archer build, and a supporting stat otherwise. As a primary stat, it can be supported by Str.
All other stats are supporting stats that provide benefits that are competitive with one another regardless of class or build, much like Constitution is in the core rules.

 

[Blue]

I did rescind on halving the modifier. I agree the full Dex modifier should apply to the crit range.

As much as I don't like half a mod, on further reflection 15-20 crit (base 20 + 5 dex) range is too much. Champion makes it 19-20 and then high level 18-20 and that's considered viable is a bit underpowered for a whole subclass. Here anyone can get it, including classes like barb who can generate Advantage regularly. Hmm, each attack would have 51% chance of being a crit with advantage. That's crazy for a barbarian with extra attacks, that's even more crazy for a rogue which can double sneak attack damage.

Crit range is too powerful to do this with.

And that's before adding you tactics points to give advantage more often.

Separating Agility from Dexterity was one of the main reasons I did this, as I do conceptually believe they should be separate. Yeah, it'll be a bit tougher to have maximum damage, maximum to-hit/crit rate, and maximum AC, but that's kind of the point.

Your conception is that casters need one stat, and weapon users need 2-3? With a goal of rebalancing the stats does that further your goal?

In other words, the fact that neither Str nor Dex does everything anymore works as a balancer for casters having a new stat to worry about, and it's easy to make the case that casters need the extra MAD to balance them against non-casters anyway.

Casters have gone from one casting stat to one casting stat. That's not a lot of "additional MAD". A wizard doesn't need Int, it needs casting stat. Now, for a few of the casters they get class features based off their old casting stat, in those cases I see what you are saying, but it's not all of them. And in some cases it's TOO much more. Before a valor bard needed Chr and Dex with some of Con. Now they need Tha (spells), Chr (class features), Dex (bonus to attack), Str (bonus to damage) with some Con and Agility.

And it's now the same casting stat for all casters, so it makes it easier to multiclass dip.

Here's my recommendation - with the current ability scores, most classes need 1-2 main stats and 1-2 minor stats for common builds. Usually not more than 3 total though you do have some corner cases like the Eldritch Knight which wants Int if you use spells with saves.

Go through the class + subclass with your new abilities, and figure out what each class needs. See if it's balanced between classes. And no minimizing - if before a weapon attacker got bonus to hit and damage, count both the ones that give to hit and to damage.

 

[Einlanzer0]

As much as I don't like half a mod, on further reflection 15-20 crit (base 20 + 5 dex) range is too much. Champion makes it 19-20 and then high level 18-20 and that's considered viable is a bit underpowered for a whole subclass. Here anyone can get it, including classes like barb who can generate Advantage regularly. Hmm, each attack would have 51% chance of being a crit with advantage. That's crazy for a barbarian with extra attacks, that's even more crazy for a rogue which can double sneak attack damage.

Crit range is too powerful to do this with.

And that's before adding you tactics points to give advantage more often.


Your conception is that casters need one stat, and weapon users need 2-3? With a goal of rebalancing the stats does that further your goal?



Casters have gone from one casting stat to one casting stat. That's not a lot of "additional MAD". A wizard doesn't need Int, it needs casting stat. Now, for a few of the casters they get class features based off their old casting stat, in those cases I see what you are saying, but it's not all of them. And in some cases it's TOO much more. Before a valor bard needed Chr and Dex with some of Con. Now they need Tha (spells), Chr (class features), Dex (bonus to attack), Str (bonus to damage) with some Con and Agility.

And it's now the same casting stat for all casters, so it makes it easier to multiclass dip.

Here's my recommendation - with the current ability scores, most classes need 1-2 main stats and 1-2 minor stats for common builds. Usually not more than 3 total though you do have some corner cases like the Eldritch Knight which wants Int if you use spells with saves.

Go through the class + subclass with your new abilities, and figure out what each class needs. See if it's balanced between classes. And no minimizing - if before a weapon attacker got bonus to hit and damage, count both the ones that give to hit and to damage.

You still aren't understanding, although it's probable I didn't articulate it well.

Weapon users still don't need more than one stat. Weapon users with only Str are exactly as effective as spellcasters with only Tha, and weapon users with dex using a light weapon should be as well, although how they get there is different and the crit rules need to be playtested to ensure balance.

The difference is that both weapon users and spellcasters can supplement their damage using Dex (or, for light weapon users, Str) to push their damage higher than in the core rules. But by doing this their defenses are likely to be worse, since AC is now tied to Agility. The overarching difference now is that characters can choose what appeals to them more out of all 7 of their secondary stats - extra damage (from Str/Dex), better AC/Initiative(Agi), better HP (Con), Tactics(Int), better perception/sanity (Wis), or better Inspiration and faction growth (Cha).

Also, crit chance is not additive. Having advantage doesn't make what's normally a 25% crit chance become a 50% crit chance. It's actually a 42% chance. And getting 25% requires having a 20 Dex, which is a significant investment considering everything that was stripped away from it for these rules. You no longer get any defensive or utilitarian benefits. It may still be too powerful, especially for abilities that use large numbers of dice (note that this does not apply to the Champion), but I like the concept enough that I want to invest some good time playtesting it. One possible fix is to go back to requiring a confirmation attack roll.

I don't plan on changing the MC requirements except adding a minimum TH score for some classes.