Ability Scores 2.0

[Blue]

You still aren't understanding, although it's probable I didn't articulate it well.

Weapon users still don't need more than one stat. Weapon users with only Str are exactly as effective as spellcasters with only Tha, and weapon users with dex using a light weapon should be as well, although how they get there is different and the crit rules need to be playtested to ensure balance.

This contradicts what you say in the OP. Unless you are saying that +crit is intended to replace +damage for light weapons. Let's look at 20 Dex. In current system, each attack is d6+5 (avg 8.5), with 1 attack in 20 as 2d6+10 (avg 17). Assuming you need an 11 to hit, that's 45% * 8.5 + 5% * 17 = 4.675 expected damage per attack. With your system, your damage is d6 for a hit (20%) and 2d6 for a crit (30%), that's 20% * 3.5 + 30% * 7 = 2.8 expected damage per attack. You're losign about 40% of your damage for becoming Dex only. (It could be d4s or d8s as well for light weapons, I went for the middle.)

So no, that's not it.

The difference is that both weapon users and spellcasters can supplement their damage using Dex (or, for light weapon users, Str) to push their damage higher than in the core rules.

This also contradicts what you wrote in the OP. Dex only affects crits, which won't adjust and spells you need to save vs.

Also, crit chance is not additive. Having advantage doesn't make what's normally a 25% crit chance become a 50% crit chance. It's actually a 42% chance.

I stand by my math. You start with a 5% chance of critical and gain 5% additional per plus of dex mod, for a total of 30% chance with a 20 dex. Chance of a critical is 30% first die + ( 70% first die isn't a critcal * 30% chance the second die is a critical) = .3 + (.7 * .3) = 51%. Exactly as I said. You may want to make sure you are using the right numbers before criticizing someone else's math and making faulty guesses how they arrived there.

And getting 25% requires having a 20 Dex, which is a significant investment considering everything that was stripped away from it for these rules.

With 8 ability scores generated, getting two good ones isn't hard. Especially when the effects of it on weapon wielders is SO multiplicative. It's such a no brainer to put good scores in both it will decrease character diversity, the exact opposite of what you say will happen.

I don't plan on changing the MC requirements except adding a minimum TH score for some classes.

Care to explain why isn't of just declaring it not a problem by fiat?

 

[Einlanzer0]

It isn't multiplicative, because crits don't affect damage modifiers, only die rolls. Moreover, the changes to the other stats make them competitive, and most people are not min/maxers anyway.

Furthermore, the math is much more nuanced than you let on.The bonus you get from frequent critting starts to outweigh the flat damage bonus you get once you're rolling two or three dice for an attack. Because of this, a dex-based rogue is very likely to outdamage a str-based rogue, and strength, though still of some benefit, is fairly nominal to a rogue. The opposite is true of the fighter. This is the intent of the new system. It creates caveats in the rules where Str and Dex aren't completely interchangeable but instead both offer different strategic value. The value of Str/Tha increases with the number of individual attacks you make in a round (as your example shows), while the value of Dex increases with the power of those attacks. Yeah, it may not be possible to have an effective Fighter that completely dumps Str in favor of Dex, and that's sort of intended, the same way that Str-based rogues aren't terribly effective in RAW. However, a fighter who desires proficiency with light weapons or archery can make good use of a hybrid build. And it makes sense to require this, since Fighters don't need as much Con or Agi as other classes to compensate for their deficits. A dex based Champion with moderately high str is going to be particularly effective since their crit bonus stacks with Dex and they will be critting a lot.

I'm not saying it's perfect as I've written it here, because it hasn't been playtested, and I'm sure I'll have to make adjustments in various areas. But, I am certain that it's a workable concept that is more interesting than the Raw rules, and math is unlikely to convince me otherwise. It may just expose things I need to flesh out more, which is really what I'm asking for.

edit: the reason I'm trying to make this work is because I want str and dex to be able to supplement each other rather than just being interchangeable based on the weapon you're using. I'm going to keep refining this to see if I can make it work and will post some theoretical examples shortly. The fighter is the biggest problem, since they make numerous attacks per round and never have attacks that use more than one die roll. Since I don't like them getting 4 attacks per round anyway (it really should be 3), I'll likely change their level 11 extra attack to a critical hit feature of some kind, something like this:

Combat Expertise
When you land a critical hit, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the total damage.

This also works a buff for the Champion, which is arguably needed. Then again, maybe the proper solution is to just change the nature of critical hits in this way rather than getting into modifying class features (although I'd still probably need to tweak Sneak Attack so it didn't become overtly OP). I.e. you can add your Dex bonus to the damage rolled on a critical hit. This would be a buff for critical hits, but is more significant with fewer die rolls, so it would help balance the scaling of critical hits. But, I want to emphasize again that having a high Dex is not meant to enable you to dump Str any more than a caster can dump Tha, with Rogue really being the only possible exception. Most classes will have at least moderately high Str or Tha, with Dex working as a supporting stat. While I want Dex-based fighters/rangers/barbs/whatever to be functional, they should really never consider Str a dump stat.

 

[Einlanzer0]

So, this is what I'll playtest first, using a modified table for sneak attacks since Rogues essentially get double the effect from Dex (maximum of 6d6 damage at level 18)

Reduce Critical hit range by Dex bonus
On Critical hit, roll weapon damage twice and add Dex modifier to the total (in addition to Str/Tha modifier)

I think this will prove to be relatively well balanced. It makes the effect of Dex significant but discourages totally dumping Str for most characters. In effect, Dex operates as very solid supporting stat for all classes except for the rogue, who it effectively remains the primary stat for due to the nature of their attacks. A Dex based fighter/monk/etc. is still playable, though they will be suboptimal if they dump Str too much. Barbarian's efficacy is increased substantially with Brutal Critical, but it's also important to recognize what Barbarians have to give up to have a very high Dex, particularly since they are strength based but don't use heavy armor. Still, this may require tweaks.

If this shows to be too powerful in play, one possible fix would be to go back to requiring a confirmation attack roll. Though, it's important to keep in mind what most classes have to give up to achieve a 20 Dex (HP, AC, Tactics, Sanity/Perception, Reknown, etc.). I expect this to be primarily a flavor choice, and will test various balancers until I'm satisfied.

 

[Einlanzer0]

Actually, what might make more sense than that even is to use an injury system that's tied to critical hits. That way, Dex isn't about just straight HP damage as much as its about dealing injurious blows. It becomes more of a utilitarian thing than an attrition thing.