Ability Scores and game playability.

[Mercule]

Er. Nine, wasn't it? Three categories, each with three attributes?

Yup. And I think the breakdown demonstrates why just three stats aren't great unless you're going extremely rules-light.

I've known far too many people who are really intelligent, but foolish or who are strong, but clumsy. Likewise, I've played quite a few characters who were more fun to play because of such splits.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Yup. And I think the breakdown demonstrates why just three stats aren't great unless you're going extremely rules-light.

I've known far too many people who are really intelligent, but foolish or who are strong, but clumsy. Likewise, I've played quite a few characters who were more fun to play because of such splits.

Exactly! And yeah, same here. I wasn't keen on Tri-Stat to begin with, a few years back, but when I encountered its clunky way of enabling such 'precision', the only logical response seemed (to me) something along the lines of: 'Why not just have some more bloody stats?!' Aaaand. . . why bother only having three, but then - in effect - providing more anyway (if clumsily). . .?

The New World of Darkness is actually a 3x3 affair, as I recall. Let's see. . . yep. . . Power/Finesse/Resistance goes along the x [or y] axis, with Physical/Mental/Social along the y [or x]. Even 'neater' than oWoD, I guess. I didn't find it to make a lot of difference, in play - 9 stats is, well, 9 stats. But I do remember liking the new nine more, regardless of their two-dimensional structure's possible virtues. Anyway, it worked.

 

[The_Gneech]

It depends on how granular you want to be and what the goals of your system are. Teenagers From Outer Space had "Relationship With Parents" and "Drive" as stats, but didn't have any kind of movement stats (for instance), while I've played in games that had different stats for Intelligence, Education, Wisdom, Presence, Appearance, and "magic power".

Heck, I've played in games based on the d30. You can do anything with the rules and make it work as long as you know why you're doing things a certain way.

-The Gneech

 

[Umbran]

Does the number of scores affect the playability of a game?

Depends what you mean by "playability". Ease of play? Level of interest in play?

The overall ease of play of a three-stat system cannot be judged on that basis alone - the stats are in a context of the rest of the system. We could probably create a very easily played three-stat system, and a torturous one.

However, as a general rule, part of the game play is fiddly-bits (stats are among the possible fiddly-bits). If you have too many fiddly-bits, game play becomes confusing, difficult, slow, and possibly frustrating. If you have too few fiddly-bits, then the game play itself isn't particularly interesting.

Game play itself isn't the only thing going on in an RPG, so that game play needs to be considered with the other stuff that's going on, and some balance struck where you want it to be for some overall experience.

 

[Delta]

One thing that I've taken to analyzing gameplay mechanics -- the psychological principle that people are happy juggling about 7+/-2 different options at once (short-term memory):

The Magical Number Seven, Plus or Minus Two - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

6 (or 7) abilities just happen to be in that range. 3 is too few. 10+ would be too many.

 

[Voadam]

I like GURPS with str, dex, health(con), and int. I don't really feel the need for many intellectual or social aspects of characters to be done out in fine grained mechanics so collapsing D&D's wisdom and charisma is fine by me.

I'm fine though with D&D or OWoD or even Palladium.

I forget the stats in Shadowrun and Ars Magica.

 

[justanobody]

As for how many basic stats a RPG needs, I'd say none, like HeroQuest. The game can be just as enjoyable.

I don't really consider that an RPG, but now could be an intro to 4th edition with the tiles and stuff similar to the board used by Morcar (the DM) to lay things out for the minis to interact with.

It is very enjoyable still to this day, but getting harder to find pieces and spare copies. The expansions are near impossible to find. Anybody got any spare Chaos Warlocks or Fimirs laying around? Maybe some extra rats or bookshelves?

Game play itself isn't the only thing going on in an RPG, so that game play needs to be considered with the other stuff that's going on, and some balance struck where you want it to be for some overall experience.

That is why I left it up to the subjective view. For years I have been towing with writing my own RPG since I will never be as lucky as K&C to have AD&D rights....

So trying to find out exactly what people think about the stats direct connection to the game and what they mean to people as for being able to play.

I cannot really see a need for more direct stats, as the 5 D&D uses encompass just those 3 principles.

STR/DEX/CON are physical
INT/WIS are mental
CHA is social

While I can see CHA represents only something to help with the rules and allow for more player interaction with each other than with the mechanics in the form of roleplaying, and the physical are there to facilitate the thiings you cannot do for the character as a player, is there really a need for them to be defined and have so many fiddly bits and still play.

So would it be possible to play with the least number of fiddly bits, or do people want more fiddly bits to shape the character by the game mechanics?

Looking at 4th defenses, 3rds saves, and 2.5s extended abilities in the form of or similar to Reflex, Will, and Fortitude, they are still only 3 things, and two of them even cover the physical attribute, Reflex and Fortitude.

So how dependant is the gameplay on the ability scores, and could not a game have just those three and have all the flexibility of even 3rd edition?

Basically how much do you really rely on the ability scores when playing?

Are they all that defines your character and your actions with it within a game?

I want to here the subjective reasoning people have for the number of scores they prefer.

 

[Voadam]

Basically how much do you really rely on the ability scores when playing?

Are they all that defines your character and your actions with it within a game?

I want to here the subjective reasoning people have for the number of scores they prefer.

Depends on the game and how they are used.

In basic/1e/2e Ability checks were often an ad hoc task resolution system and NWP often were just modified ability checks for trained characters.

In 1e/2e ability scores were prerequisites for some classes.

They provide various amounts of mechanical impact depending on the system, such as bonuses to melee damage, AC and initiative or hp.

Max spell levels are sometimes tied to a stat.

In GURPS health stat is also your hp. In GURPS skills and combat rolls are based on skill modified stat checks.

In 3e stats gave bonuses provided feat prereqs which could be prc prereqs and were spell minimums. Stat bonuses were much smaller for skill checks but still an impact there.

Stats can be useless, in basic/1e/2e charisma provided a reaction roll adjustment, was a prereq for certain classes, and provided rules for max henchman and hirelings. It could be used as a guide for roleplaying, but is a poor tool for creating good game impacts IMO.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

While it is certainly doable, I too prefer a wider assortment of ability scores. My personal favourite is the Storytelling System's 9.

 

[RFisher]

At one time I thought the absolute minimum was ten. (^_^)

Since, I’ve played around with having none. I think you can go 100% skill-based just fine. I suppose Risus could be cited as an example of such.

GURPS had four, which I felt was too few—for GURPS. Of course, 4/e recognized that ST and HT were only half as valuable as DX or IQ, so you could say they only have 0.5 + 1.0 + 1.0 + 0.5 = 3. (^_^) In any case, given the way the whole system worked, I felt it would’ve worked a lot better if DX and IQ had another peer. Something Charisma-ish, perhaps.

Note that some games manage to get more milage out of fewer attributes by using advantages and disadvantages to provide fine-tuning for subsets of an attribute.

But while four is too few for GURPS, the Prince Valiant Storytelling Game seems to get by just fine with only two.

On the other end, you have Diane Warrior Princess with 11. It’s attribute-based, having only attributes and no skills or classes. Has there been a game with more?