Ability scores do not affect attacks/defenses

Why start with an effective 16? eh, I just thought that a starting 18 was the "exceptional case" (i.e. racial associated or player willing to allocate the very expensive 18) and that 16 more represented the norm (it can be argued, but even so, this would still work)

I've generated about a dozen PCs/important NPCs and they all begin with an [18] in their most important stat. I'm not attempting to min/max or whatever, it just seems the 4e system encourages (begs!) you to start with an [18] and then do the best you can after that! :p
 

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Yes, I would say that 18 post racial mods is the norm. That would translate to giving everyone +4 to attack instead of ability scores.

The reasons I decided to apply a penalty to monsters instead of a bonus to players are:
-Bonus to players cannot be implemented in character builder (I realize that none of this can be implemented in character builder, so my point here is moot)
-Bonus to players requires about 5 modifications (one by each player in group) at each level. My players are not great at house-rules
-Penalty to monsters simply requires me to consult a chart each fight, I can do this in my head.
-Penalty to monsters means I handle math instead of group (less errors) and I handle rules instead of group (they aren't all experienced)
-I can add things like paragon defenses, expertise and even masterwork armor to the chart, eliminating the need to think about them ever again and removing a lot of sloppy from the system.

My theory on how to handle armor:
[sblock]
Lets assume that if Int/Dex are your main stat you will wear light armor with a +4 mod. If they are your secondary you will wear light armor with a +3 mod. If they are neither you will have a +2 mod or wear heavy armor.
Then lets make leather equivalent to chain if Dex is your main. Lets say if Dex is your main you get +2 in light armor. Then we have to give leather an AC of 4. If dex is your secondary, you get +1 in light armor. If Dex is none of the above you get nothing extra in light armor.
[/sblock]

Here are the armors under my rules
Cloth: +2
Leather: +4
Hide: +5
Chain: +6
Scale: +7
Plate: +8
If your class has Dex or Int as a primary ability score, you gain +1 AC in light armor. If your class has Dex or Int as a secondary ability score, you gain +2 AC in light armor. Apply only the higher of these two bonuses. In this context a ranger counts as having Dex for a primary ability score (even though they have 2 primary ability scores).

Of course, this adds to the complexity of the house rule, and puts some of the rules-load on the players. This is why I think this makes a better 5e core than a 4e house rule. If I had a more advanced group to play-test this with I would.
 

I'm curious to see if secondary stats become the primary stats in such a game.

As a wizard, why get any int at all? Max wisdom for crippling orb attacks and a badass thunderwave.

Sorc...cha....bah! Max dex for big AC and still getting damage through my striker mechanic.
 

I just realized that adding a penalty to monsters rather than making the modifications to PCs presents a problem: PC vs PC matches are no longer valid.
It would only work if PC vs PC was forbidden and NPCs were built as monsters, or another change is made.
Under my current build PCs are at approx -4 to hit, -3 to NADs, but no change to AC. I'm looking into this.
 

I think it would be more straightforward if you replaced the penalty to monsters with a bonus to PCs (to replace the ability score bonus). Admittedly, this doesn't mesh very well with the CB (though it is possible, IIRC, to manually edit attack bonuses in CB).

That said, I'm not clear why PvP wouldn't work using your idea. If I understand it correctly, player attack and defenses are reduced by a roughly equal amount, therefore PvP ought to work okay (the biggest loss would be no truly weak defense, and therefore an inability for casters to target that defense).

EDIT: Okay, I see the issue. AC ought to be reduced along with NADs and Attack. I'd recommend the following base:
Cloth +0
Leather +2
Hide +3
Chainmail +2
Scale +3
Plate +4
Admittedly, this makes heavy armor largely undesirable (why wear Chain if Leather is just as good with less penalties). Unfortunately, that's an inherent issue in removing ability score modifiers without substituting something in their place. The advantage that heavy armor grants is a high AC without high Dex/Int. You could make heavy armors more competitive by increasing their values by +1 (equivalent to a 20 ability score), but that still leaves Chainmail relatively useless (Hide armor has less penalties).


I've been working on an idea along similar lines (though my idea also reworks the 4e math a bit):

Ability scores no longer influence attack or defenses, and have a lesser impact on skills.

Distribute 13 points between the following four combat values. All values start at 0 and may not be raised above 5.
-Attack
-AC & Ref
-Fort
-Will

-Attack replaces your ability modifier when making an attack roll, though it does not replace ability modifiers for damage or secondary effects.
Expertise is either banned, or grants a non-scaling +1 bonus.
The damage/crit bonuses granted by magic weapons/implements are still important, and either those items should be distributed as treasure, or the damage and crit damage bonuses converted to inherent bonuses based on level.
It is the DM's choice whether the Attack modifier only modifies powers, or if general abilities such as basic attack are also modified. Powers that do not have either the weapon or implement keyword (Dragon Breath) have any attack bonus granted by the power in the attack line reduced by 3 (by 6 at level 11, and 9 at level 21), to a minimum of +0.

-AC replaces your ability modifier for AC. It observes the normal restrictions, such as not stacking with heavy armor.
Magic/masterwork armor bonuses do not increase AC.

-Fort/Ref/Will replace your ability modifier for the relevant defense.
Feats which boost defenses are optionally allowable, but should never be allowed to stack.
Magic neck items and masterwork armors do not increase defenses (other magic items that increase defenses are not recommended).

Skills use either your ability modifier, or your trained bonus, whichever is higher. The trained bonus is +5, with an additional +1 bonus per tier if the skill is on your class list. You can choose to be trained in skills that are not on your class list, although you will not benefit from the tier bonus. The Skill Training feat grants you a class skill; the feat gives you the tier bonus in addition to the trained bonus. Allowing backgrounds to grant +2 is not recommended.

I recommend an additional benefit to being trained in a skill, to make it a respectable choice even for players who have a high relevant ability score. I have a number of ideas, the simplest of which is to allow each trained skill to be rerolled once per day.

All of these values scale at a rate of +27 over 30 levels (+1 at every level except 1, 11, and 21). This replaces the +1/2 level modifier. You can easily change the challenge level of the campaign by increasing or decreasing the level modifier.
 
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The biggest issue I see with this is the issue Stalker0 brought up. Allowing controllers and Leaders max out their secondary stat would greatly increase their power.

For instance: a level 11 artificer could use his 11 encounter power to adjust adjacent allies attack and (yay alliteration) damage rolls by 6 as an effect.
 

The biggest issue I see with this is the issue Stalker0 brought up. Allowing controllers and Leaders max out their secondary stat would greatly increase their power.

For instance: a level 11 artificer could use his 11 encounter power to adjust adjacent allies attack and (yay alliteration) damage rolls by 6 as an effect.

Would this be significantly more an issue than under RAW, I wonder? By the RAW, I could build a Deva Artificer with (at level 11) an 18 Int and 22 Wis who could do the same thing. I don't doubt that to-hit is important, but damage should not be underestimated either.

While raising your secondary ability score in lieu of your primary is certainly a better trade-off under this system than RAW, it still involves a trade. Up front damage in return for situational benefits (Thunderwave that pushes 5 instead of 3). Conditions and the like can shift the odds of a battle in the party's favor, but when all is said and done it's almost always damage that wins the battle.

The most significant exploits, I think, would probably involve classes that don't rely on an ability score for a significant portion of their damage (Twin Striking Ranger) and builds that lean heavily away from dealing damage (Pacifist Cleric). I'm not convinced it would be a problem though.
 

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