About initiative

[KarinsDad]

This, in particular, is definitely incorrect. There is no initiative order before combat begins, but you can and should track actions round-by-round at any point where it is important to do so. In fact, the DMG recommends doing precisely that in a situation where one side has time to prepare before the other side becomes aware of them.

Agreed. I'll concede that point.

 

[KarinsDad]

And still I think that my opinion is correct. Even thought I read and even think that I understood your point.

Well, I think we are having a communication problem here because I am not understanding your POV.

Let me see if I got your POV straight with two examples. I am writing these examples as I perceive your POV to be. Please correct me if I am incorrect.

1) One PC is on one side of a closed (but not locked) door. One NPC is on the other side of the door.

The PC hears the NPC, but the NPC fails his Listen check (while the door is closed) and does not hear the PC.

The PC opens the door (move action before combat started), the NPC does not get any checks to see if he is suprised, is automatically surprised, and the PC gets to roll initiative for the surprise round (and cast his Hold Person spell as per the "IMO in error according to the rules" example in the DMG).

2) One PC is on one side of a doorway. One NPC is on the other side of the doorway. The door is already open.

The PC hears the NPC, but the NPC fails his Listen roll and does not hear the PC.

The PC casts a Bless spell (standard action before combat started), the NPC does get a Listen check to see if he is surprised, may or may not be surprised, and the PC only gets to roll initiative for a surprise round if the NPC was surprised.


Same number of actions. Same sequence of events. The only difference is that in one case, a door is being opened and in the other, a Bless spell is being cast.

The Bless spell gives the NPC a Listen check, but opening the door does not.

Do I have your POV properly explained here?

If so, can you explain the discrepency (within the rules) as to why these situations are not identical from a rules perspective and should not be handled identically (i.e. give the NPC in the room a Listen check when the door is opened or when the Bless spell is cast)?


What mystical rule makes opening the door an action that cannot alert an enemy, but other actions like casting a Bless spell can alert the enemy?

 

[Vrecknidj]

I'd be surprised if I were sitting in a room, minding my own business, and the door was suddenly kicked in.

Well, not really, as I'm a ninja, but, you know, I just thought I'd chime in.



Dave

 

[Jacen]

Well, I think we are having a communication problem here because I am not understanding your POV.

I had guessed it already.

Let me see if I got your POV straight with two examples. I am writing these examples as I perceive your POV to be. Please correct me if I am incorrect.

OK. They were quite correct.

Do I have your POV properly explained here?

Yes, quite closely. I think that the combat starts when enemy is seen or spell takes an effect.

If so, can you explain the discrepency (within the rules) as to why these situations are not identical from a rules perspective and should not be handled identically (i.e. give the NPC in the room a Listen check when the door is opened or when the Bless spell is cast)?

I would give an listen check if (for example) it was told that the door looks realy heavy or rusty. It could squeal when opened and that can specify that other is alerted and thus preventing the surprise. Or if they are guard watching the door and waiting it to be opened - even thought they are not fully alert and are talking (spot checks with modifiers for PCs benefit). So I could give NPCs some changes to notice the door.

But the main point was that I wouldn't start the combat before the door is open and they see the enemy. If the door is opened slowly and carefully to check if there are anybody inside more rolls for NPCs to avoid the surprise.

What mystical rule makes opening the door an action that cannot alert an enemy, but other actions like casting a Bless spell can alert the enemy?

If the door moves silently (and is not locked) and kick in succeeds then I wouldn't give any checks more besideds listen for precombat spell casting. And by default I think door is good and moves quite silently. And what goes for spell casting, you have to say verbal components aloud. So that is the difference in basic case.

Have to admit that now when thinking examples you gave I hade to go more specifics than I would have cared. But anyway the main point for me was that I udnerstand the rules so that the combat starts when enemy is seen/attacked. I would even allow rogue to make move silent attempts (if the door was opened silently and NPCs didn't see/hear that) to get behind NPC to backstab as a surprise. And after that he would get an another sneak attack as an surprise round standard action.

Hope that clarifies how my mind goes and what is my POV.

 

[KarinsDad]

Yes, quite closely. I think that the combat starts when enemy is seen or spell takes an effect.

Seen, heard, spell goes off, what is the difference?

The rule in the book is when the DM decides based on the awareness of one or both sides.

I would give an listen check if (for example) it was told that the door looks realy heavy or rusty. It could squeal when opened and that can specify that other is alerted and thus preventing the surprise. Or if they are guard watching the door and waiting it to be opened - even thought they are not fully alert and are talking (spot checks with modifiers for PCs benefit). So I could give NPCs some changes to notice the door.

Who cares if it is a silently opening door? Listen check DC 25. Spot check DC 10, higher if the NPCs are distracted playing dice or some such (any NPC might be looking in the direction of the door when it opens, right?).

But the main point was that I wouldn't start the combat before the door is open and they see the enemy. If the door is opened slowly and carefully to check if there are anybody inside more rolls for NPCs to avoid the surprise.

First off, I wouldn't typically allow the door to be opened before combat either. However, if the players requested it, I might allow it in some situations because it is allowable by the rules (as per the DM of the OP).

But, the difference between your POV and my POV is that if the door gets opened pre-combat, the NPCs immediately get a check to notice it (and/or to notice a PC opening the door) with my POV. Those NPCs who make the check, are not surprised. With your POV, the NPCs are automatically surprised. How (according to the rules)?

And, why does one have to "see the enemy"?

Your players cannot have a fight with a Wizard with a Greater Invisibility up?

And, how does this follow the rules?

The rules state that one only has to be aware of the enemy, not that they have to see him.

And chances are, some NPCs might see the PCs if the PCs open the door. So, your point here does not make sense.

If the door moves silently (and is not locked) and kick in succeeds then I wouldn't give any checks more besideds listen for precombat spell casting. And by default I think door is good and moves quite silently. And what goes for spell casting, you have to say verbal components aloud. So that is the difference in basic case.

Well, most doors in a medieval setting probably wouldn't be very silent unlike well designed doors in modern life. Maybe in the house of a noble or powerful merchant, but not most doors in many adventuring settings.

But regardless of that, I still do not understand you.

What difference?

DC 0 Listen to hear a spell being cast. DC 10 Spot to see the door opening. DC 10 to hear a door opening. Whatever.

How is this different as you claim? You are not making sense. Sorry.

The door could be well oiled. How is that pertinent to this discussion. That just makes the DC for a door opening Listen check higher. But, the NPCs would still get a Listen and/or Spot check, right?

Just because a door was opened.

Granted, there could be a situation where the NPCs expect a fellow NPC to come through the door and the DC would be higher. But, they still get a check.

The problem with your POV is that the surprise is automatic (according the examples I gave and you agreed with).

The only check you appear to want to give is not when combat starts (to see if they are surprised), but before the door is even opened (to see if they notice anything before the PCs can spring their surprise).

Have to admit that now when thinking examples you gave I hade to go more specifics than I would have cared. But anyway the main point for me was that I udnerstand the rules so that the combat starts when enemy is seen/attacked. I would even allow rogue to make move silent attempts (if the door was opened silently and NPCs didn't see/hear that) to get behind NPC to backstab as a surprise. And after that he would get an another sneak attack as an surprise round standard action.

Hope that clarifies how my mind goes and what is my POV.

No. It does not.

You are stating what you would do, but not why and not how what you would do follows the Suprise round rules.


You are not explaining why the pre-combat action of opening a door does not give the NPCs checks, but the pre-combat action of casting the spell on the other side of an open doorway does. That is what would be helpful. Why are the actions treated differently in your POV? You explained WHAT you would do, but not WHY that follows the rules.


I understand what you are saying, but not why your POV follows the rules. It does not appear to follow the rules at all (except for that one silly example in the DMG that also does not follow the rules).

 

[Darklone]

Actually, I'm with Karinsdad according to the rules.

Two scenarios how one might rule it:
- The fighter opens the door. Combat starts, everyone is aware of each other, no surprise round.
- The group is aware of the others thus getting a surprise round, yet someone needs to remove the obstacle to attack, e.g. waste his action to open the door.

The first ruling would make less sense to me and IMHO Karinsdad argues along the 2nd possibility. Now if the PCs would find a way to open the door (unseen servant or a summoned monster) or get into the room by other means (blink?), they all would be able to use their surprise round standard action.

 

[Jacen]

The rule in the book is when the DM decides based on the awareness of one or both sides.

There are problems on your theory too. Let's think that there is that door and PCs have heard noices that speak goblin. OK, so the buff themselfs and then start the combat. NPCs doesn't know about PCs. As a surprise round the first opens the door. Well, tries because it was locked. Thief tries to pic it as his surprise std action and fails. So the don't get into the room. NPCs didn't notice a thing so they are still unaware of the PCs. Acording the rule the combat is now going because the surprise round is over. So now what? Roll for initiative because the surprise round is over? So now PCs have lost all possibilites to surprise the enemy even though they still don't know about PCs. And if NPC roll high for initiative they even aren't flatfooted anymore. Even they still don't know that they are in combat.

Who cares if it is a silently opening door? Listen check DC 25. Spot check DC 10, higher if the NPCs are distracted playing dice or some such (any NPC might be looking in the direction of the door when it opens, right?).

If they try to open the door slowly to get a peak into the room, yes. If they rush in then no. At the point I do not have PHB or DMG at hand, only the SRD.

But, the difference between your POV and my POV is that if the door gets opened pre-combat, the NPCs immediately get a check to notice it (and/or to notice a PC opening the door) with my POV. Those NPCs who make the check, are not surprised. With your POV, the NPCs are automatically surprised. How (according to the rules)?

Again you are putting word to my mouth. Like I tried to tell it depends about the door and how it is opened. If PCs know that there are NPCs inside and try to surprise them then by default they open door fast to surprise thoes inside. If they try to sneak in then checks. Sneaking is not the surprise. Surprise is what they do after the sneak. If they manage to sneak...

And, why does one have to "see the enemy"?

To start the combat.

Your players cannot have a fight with a Wizard with a Greater Invisibility up?

If they don't know about the enemy then they can't.

And, how does this follow the rules?

The rules state that one only has to be aware of the enemy, not that they have to see him.

See, hear, smell, notice spell effect or being told. All the same. You need to know about enemy to combat.

And chances are, some NPCs might see the PCs if the PCs open the door. So, your point here does not make sense.

That is the action to initiate the combat. Door opens and the combat starts. Did NPCs know about the PCs? No, all they know is that the door opened. If they execept the door to open it doesn't surprise them and then the opening of the door is not the action that starts the combat.

But regardless of that, I still do not understand you.

And I don't understand how you can start combat without the enemy.

What difference?

DC 0 Listen to hear a spell being cast. DC 10 Spot to see the door opening. DC 10 to hear a door opening. Whatever.

Did you except the door to open. That is the difference.

The door could be well oiled. How is that pertinent to this discussion. That just makes the DC for a door opening Listen check higher. But, the NPCs would still get a Listen and/or Spot check, right?

What is the DC to notice the combat started?

The problem with your POV is that the surprise is automatic (according the examples I gave and you agreed with).

If the door opens as planned then it is automatic. That was the plan. That is the tactical advantage they were looking for. To open the door so that enemy inside is surprised.

The only check you appear to want to give is not when combat starts (to see if they are surprised), but before the door is even opened (to see if they notice anything before the PCs can spring their surprise).

Like I asked. What is the DC for starting a combat? Opening the door initiated the combat. They are execpted to notice the door opening. If they don't then the combat doesn't start and PCs have more time to act.

You are stating what you would do, but not why and not how what you would do follows the Suprise round rules.

But it does follow the rules. Door opens and combat starts. Did they know about the PCs before that? If no then it is surprise. PC decided to try a surprise -> opening the door faster than normal.

You are not explaining why the pre-combat action of opening a door does not give the NPCs checks, but the pre-combat action of casting the spell on the other side of an open doorway does. That is what would be helpful. Why are the actions treated differently in your POV? You explained WHAT you would do, but not WHY that follows the rules.

So in you POV lone PC can't get any benefit from surprising the enemy? Openig the door must be the surprise round action. Only way a lone PC can get any benefit is that he opens the dor normaly and hopes that anyone didn't notice. Or start the combat and open the door as a surprise. Then situation is the same than without the surprise. Only that after the surprisee round unaware attendants roll for initiative. So because the surprise you didn't get any benefits only some "punishment". So what is the point of surprise then? To lose tactical advantade?

If you hear someone behind the door you almost except the door being opened. If you don't exept it to open that will surprise you. Give me a rule that tells that combat starts when the players want it to start. Casting of the spell doesn't start the combat. Opening the door does, or if it doesn't then they can act more before the combat. If NPCs hear the the casting they can go to a round time scale and ready an action to cast when door opens. When that opens the PCs are surprised if they didn't hear the casting.

I understand what you are saying, but not why your POV follows the rules. It does not appear to follow the rules at all (except for that one silly example in the DMG that also does not follow the rules).

In my POV it follows the rules IMHO. The main difference in our POVs is that what triggeres the combat.

 

[Darklone]

There are problems on your theory too. Let's think that there is that door and PCs have heard noices that speak goblin. OK, so the buff themselfs and then start the combat. NPCs doesn't know about PCs. As a surprise round the first opens the door. Well, tries because it was locked. Thief tries to pic it as his surprise std action and fails. So the don't get into the room. NPCs didn't notice a thing so they are still unaware of the PCs. Acording the rule the combat is now going because the surprise round is over. So now what? Roll for initiative because the surprise round is over? So now PCs have lost all possibilites to surprise the enemy even though they still don't know about PCs. And if NPC roll high for initiative they even aren't flatfooted anymore. Even they still don't know that they are in combat.

Hells Gate on Faerun, if my PCs are stupid enough to try to kick in a door and that's locked... they deserve what they get. Send the rogue ahead when he checks the door and he'll know.

INVISIBLE WIZARD: If they don't know about the enemy then they can't.

Invis (greater) flying wizard casts fireball on PCs (surprise round). Wizard and PCs roll initiative. What's the problem? Certainly they can do combat. The only problem for the PCs is: How do we kill that wizard, not how do we initiate combat.

 

[Jacen]

Invis (greater) flying wizard casts fireball on PCs (surprise round). Wizard and PCs roll initiative. What's the problem? Certainly they can do combat. The only problem for the PCs is: How do we kill that wizard, not how do we initiate combat.

well the combat starts when the wizard wants. PCs cant if they don't get any hint (sound, smell spell castin etc.) that enemy is there. When wizard starts to cast spell combat starts. PCs didn't know about wizard -> surprise. So wizard cast spell as surprise std action. Then roll for the initiative.
Difference here compared to the door is that openig the door fast starts the combat. The door opening hints NPSs like starting to cast spell which they hears.

 

[Darklone]

I think you forget why people use doors (except for keeping out the cold): They want to keep unwanted visitors away.

So the unwanted visitors (in the following called PCs) need to be careful or change tactics to get through the door without any disadvantages that were carefully intended and expected by the builders of the door.

Invis wizard: Spot check DC 20 and you have him. Fireball into the area...