About initiative

[KarinsDad]

KD,

I think you are misunderstanding what post-combat means.

"post" means "after" so when you are talking about post-combat what you are saying is "after combat".

I believe what you mean to say is either "pre-combat" (which means before combat) or "outside of combat". I don't think you mean to use the term post-combat the way you have been.

I understand what post means. In earlier posts, I was calling it pre-combat-start and post-combat-start, but that was getting a bit much to write. I assumed Jacen (and anyone else who read those messages), knew what I meant.


Maybe pre-start and post-start are better phrases. I am talking about the single instant when the DM says: "Ok, roll initiative.".

Before that, combat has not yet started. After that, combat has started.

 

[KarinsDad]

In the example you gave, that means:

#1) Door is closed. Combat starts as soon as the PCs kick in the door. Those breaking in get a surprise round, which will include the "break in the door" action.

#2) Door is open. Combat starts without a surprise round, as everyone is aware of everyone else.

Chose.

He is choosing:

#3) Door is open. Combat starts with a surprise round, as nobody in the room was aware of the anyone else before the door was opened and since he as DM wants to give the PCs surprise over the NPCs because that is what the PCs were planning.

Although the DMG suggests #1 or #2, Jacen is choosing #3. #3 is legally valid by the rules (because the DMG does state that ultimately it is up to the DM to decide), but it is not what the DMG suggests to do. Hence, it is a sub-optimal choice. #3 is what the Joran example in the DMG illustrates (which also does not follow what the DMG suggests to do on the same page).

Jacen is against #1 because he feels that problems could occur (i.e. the door might not open, what does the DM do then?). I think these are unfounded worries (the DM either just procedes or he picks #2 in the first place knowing that the door is locked), but Jacen thinks these issues with #1 are important.

 

[Jacen]

If the opponents on the other side of the closed door continue to not notice the PCs lurking just outside?

As long as the PC's patience lasts.

Nice combat then.

 

[Jacen]

Here is the issue. If you allow the Wizard to cast pre-combat and you auto-surprise the NPCs, then the Wizard gets to effectively do two Surprise round actions (teleport and something else). The reason it is effectively two Surprise round actions is that there is not a pre-combat point in time the NPCs can notice people teleporting into their room.

But it is after combat starts and there is teleport error to place that does not have enemy was there any combat? Now you are inconsistent. What makes the casting of buff spells and teleport spells different if they are cast on place where NPCs can't detect them being cast. Or are you ruling that teleport spell takes round or two to materialize people? And wizards aren't getting any benefit in may way of doing that.

Looked at another way, the Wizard's Teleport spell is either pre-combat (and since it is still not yet combat, the NPCs get checks to notice people teleporting into the room), or the Wizard's Teleport spell is post-combat (after surprise round inits have been rolled) in which case he has to use a surprise round action to cast.

There is no middle ground. Pre-combat, or post-combat.

Yes there is There is thing called combat. And when combat starts and there are unaware attendants the result is that there is surprise round. So what if he does fail the spell. Next time he can cast on his initiative and now there still are unaware NPCs in combat. There is the same problem here that you didn't answer. I gave an example that showed players getting some benefit with doing nothing on surprise round and then delaying next round action untill the door is opened and opening it as move action. You are just forcing players to take an surprise and thus giving them penalties.

 

[Jacen]

This is not true. I have quoted the rules for you and carefully explained how my POV follows them. You have not once quoted the rules and explained how your POV follows the rules. Your POV follows that one example.

And I thought that you following the rules needs that specific thing to happen.

Your POV is legal, but not as per the direction of RAW.

And once again "you are not following the rules".

You are missing the point. The DM has two ways to run these types of scenarios: pre-combat or post-combat. If the door is locked and the DM thinks there might be problems with the idea of opening the door as part of the surprise round. (i.e. post-combat and in the surprise round), he can easily not start the combat until the door is actually open (i.e. pre-combat open the door).

"When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised." What it has to do what DM desides? Doesn't the combat start when someone is going to attack.

These problems you talk about are only in your mind. Any DM can easily avoid them by making the door opening pre-combat as opposed to post-combat if he thinks there will be a problem.

So combat starts when DM chooses so.

Casting an offensive spell is a combat action. Opening a door is not.

So you need to be in combat to cast fireball just for fun? "I attack the dark. I cast magic missile. Do I hit?"

Hence, casting a Fireball is always a post-combat action (if attacking creatures with it).

So now you can cast it out of combat. Doesn't that make it almost qual to opening the door?

The PCs use up the Standard Action of one of the PCs to open the door, the rest of the PCs auto-surprise the NPCs. If it is opened pre-combat, the NPCs get checks to notice the door opening.

But if the door is closed there is no combat.

Those are the rules. Opening the door post-combat as part of the surprise round is the only way to auto-surprise in the open door scenario. Opening pre-combat does not guarantee surprise.

These definetly are not rules. There is nothing in rules saying pre combat or post-combat. Do combat start when there are no one to attack? After all the rules says "When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised." and "If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin."

And the players do not decide if opening the door is pre-combat or post-combat, the DM decides.

So PCs can't start the combat because it is up to DM to desided when it starts?

Casting a spell is an action. Opening a door is an action. Pulling out a weapon is an action. Drinking a potion is an action.

If the NPCs who are currently unaware of the PCs are capable of hearing or seeing the action, then they should get a check to notice the action.

Regardless of situation.

But for you, opening a door with an aware side on one side and an unaware side on the other does NOT give checks. My question is why not? You have yet to answer the question.

I have already answered to this. Because the players desided to surprise the NPCs.

You keep saying that is how you would do it, but you have not yet explained what is so special about the door action.

1) Why are the unaware NPCs auto-surprised in a scenario whem the aware PC opens a closed door?

You stated that aware so I guess you know that if both are unaware and if player states that he opens the door without knowing NPCs otherside are both surprised. So it is not bashed open. That can alert monsters nearby. Now when they are strting to attack they open it faster. They are still out of combat. I have to admit that delaying the attack while one openes the door makes sense.

2) Why are the unaware NPCs not auto-surprised in a scenario whem the aware PC Fighter takes a 5 foot step into an open doorway and pulls out his weapon?

Well they are. at the moment he steps to doorway surprise round starts. 5tf move and drawing a weapon is valid action to that. After Fighter have done that NPCs roll the initiative.

3) Why are the unaware NPCs not auto-surprised in a scenario whem the aware PC Cleric casts a spell outside an open doorway, but out of view?

If that is silent spell they are untill spell takes of. Spellcasting can't be fastened because we want to surprise.

All three of these are identical situations from a start of combat perspective. They are all observable actions. They all consist of aware PCs trying to surprise and attack the NPCs. What is special about the door?

Out of combat doing things.

What is so special about opening a door that the unaware NPCs are auto-surprised? You are using different rules for the open the door action than you are the other actions, hence, you are being inconsistent.

There is one difference. If you run 30 ft and hit the door, does that count as full round action? If you gather some force and kick the door in it is not standard open door. So maybe the err here is to speak about open door.

I have no other way to explain it. You have yet to explain what is so special about the door situation that you use different rules with it (auto-surprise versus checks) than with other observable actions.

I have to admit that now your example give me some things to think. And only explanation I have is that when I spoke about opening the door I didn't mean that you open the door like normaly. It is more likely that PC does something that results door being opened fast. Before that is opened the combat starts. If it is opened normaly there are spot checks before combat starts.

 

[KarinsDad]

But it is after combat starts and there is teleport error to place that does not have enemy was there any combat? Now you are inconsistent. What makes the casting of buff spells and teleport spells different if they are cast on place where NPCs can't detect them being cast. Or are you ruling that teleport spell takes round or two to materialize people? And wizards aren't getting any benefit in may way of doing that.

The teleport can occur pre-start of combat (just like buff spells). I have already stated that. If it does (as per DM decision), then the NPCs get a check when the PCs appear in the room.

The open door can occur pre-start of combat. If it does, then the NPCs get a check when the door opens.

Totally consistent.

 

[KarinsDad]

I have already answered to this. Because the players desided to surprise the NPCs.

This is not a rules answer.

There are two requirements here. The players decide to surprise and the DM allows for surprise. The players do not get to decide on their own.

You claim that opening the door results in auto-surprise, but so far the only reason you have given is because the players decide to surprise the NPCs.

Err, so what? Players decide to do things all of the time, but we have dice rolls to determine success.

It is more likely that PC does something that results door being opened fast. Before that is opened the combat starts. If it is opened normaly there are spot checks before combat starts.

Fast, slow, doesn't really matter.

It just comes down to:

1) Is the door opened before initiatives are rolled?

a) Yes. Combat has not yet started. NPCs get checks to see if they notice the door being open (if it is opened fast, the DC should be low; if slow, the DC should be higher).

b) No. Combat has started. In order to open the door, the PCs have to use up a Standard Action.


The speed of the door opening is not relevant to the discussion except for how high of a DC is required to notice that door opening. There are no rules that opening a door quickly gives auto-surprise whereas opening it slowly gives checks to notice it being opened.


You are adding:

c) Yes. Combat has not yet started. NPCs do not get checks to see if they notice the door being open because of DM fiat (rule zero).

The rules in the DMG (that I quoted earlier) suggest that DMs give characters a chance (i.e. checks) to notice stuff like this. Your solution c) here ignores that suggestion in the DMG.


The reason a) is more RAW correct than c) is due to the fact that combat has not yet started. Bottom line.

If combat has not yet started, there is no rules reason for not giving the NPCs a check, but there is a rules reason to do so. What is your rule reason for not doing so? So far, you have only stated it is because the PCs want to surprise the NPCs. That is not a rule reason.

It still comes down to "Why is opening a door an action that automatically surprises when other actions do not?". You might think you have answered that question, but you have not. At least not that I could understand your answer.

"Because the players desided to surprise the NPCs."

WHAT???

 

[Anthraxus]

You are making this too complicated. The DM decides when combat starts. The only question he needs to answer is: "Are the combatants aware?"

That's it.

I think Nail hit the, uh... nevermind.

The DM decides when combat starts. He can declare the PCs will get a surprise round on the monsters in this situation, and he can also decide that the PC kicking in the door uses that as his action in the surprise round.

 

[Vegepygmy]

If you have rules text that disagrees with my interpretation, please feel free to post it.

DMG, page 22: "Once the two sides come into contact, the aware characters can take a standard action while the unaware characters do nothing."

In the OP's example, the two sides do not come "into contact" until the door is opened. At that point, those on the already aware side get to take standard actions, while those on the previously unaware side do nothing. You do not determine awareness at some discrete moment of time after the door has been opened; you do so before it is opened. "Start of a battle" was not intended to be interpreted as narrowly as you have done.

The DMG explains this all. There is no conflict between the DMG and the PHB if you read the rules as a whole. In other words, the PHB states the rule. The DMG explains how that rule was meant to be understood, and gives an example of how it was meant to be implemented. Reading the PHB again with that understanding in mind, it makes perfect sense--though it may no longer have the same meaning you thought it did before you read the DMG. This is only a "conflict" if you are the kind of reader who is unable to integrate new information.

 

[KarinsDad]

DMG, page 22: "Once the two sides come into contact, the aware characters can take a standard action while the unaware characters do nothing."

In the OP's example, the two sides do not come "into contact" until the door is opened. At that point, those on the already aware side get to take standard actions, while those on the previously unaware side do nothing. You do not determine awareness at some discrete moment of time after the door has been opened; you do so before it is opened. "Start of a battle" was not intended to be interpreted as narrowly as you have done.

Finish the quoted section with the sentence that follows it:

Keep in mind that if the aware characters alert the unaware side before actual contact is made, then both sides are treated as aware.

The designers were quite aware that actions could screw it up for the aware side.

Is it your claim that opening a door is incapable of alerting the unaware side? This is impossible in your interpretation???

As you stated, read the rules as a whole. Do not drop pertinent sentences.