About to run an evil campaign! Advice wanted. (players of my game no peak)

[Renfield]

Understood, though I cannot say I believe evil people often break laws, I think a vast amount of them live day to day living perfectly law abiding lives. They might simply be cruel or ruthless in how they go about things. Take ambititious polititions not ashamed to use every dirty, though legal (for the most part...) trick in the book to advance in their career whether they be a baron striving to become a duke or a governor striving to become a president. Though that's an example of lawful and neutral evil right there. Neutral evil not really caring if he gains said advancement legally or not so long as he gains it and isn't taken from it. Though I agree, if they make a name for themselves they may just be hired out, I simply have to see where things go.

 

[Hand of Evil]

Understood, though I cannot say I believe evil people often break laws, I think a vast amount of them live day to day living perfectly law abiding lives.

Evil people will use the rules to their advanage but do not confuse law with good, this is why I always harp on defing evil. Murder (cold-blooded), Cannibalism (life & blood drinkers included), torture, mind-control (slavery?), consorting with demons, worshipping evil gods, being orc, and a number of other things, the players have to know, it builds the interaction of the world with the players and really does help with detect evil.

Some evil people are needed in the world, maybe we don't need to know about them but we work and deal with them everyday.

 

[Renfield]

Yes, I know them well, they're called tourists!

Sorry, worked tourism in Juneau Alaska, and one might ask why anyone would ever want to come visit alaska? Well, I don't know myself, I love this state but damn, so many evil wicked tourists.

Anyway, bashing tourists aside, we've all agreed it is quite possible to be evil with out being outright vile (I.E. cannibalism, human sacrifices, rape, all that wrapped into one grusome ceremony where the rape part can be before or after the sacrifice whatever is preferred) and like to keep it a little toned down. Not too toned down of course, I expect some wonderfully sinister things from my players, just nothing outright... I know I over use this word but it simply fits, vile. Oh, and depraved works as well.

Still keeping them in line is something I'm mildly concerned about. They seem to be doing a decent job thus far simply playing 'the bad guys' who will, in a sense, eventually be sort of 'good guys' considering their little quest will be something that most certainly concerns them afterall. Sorry, six a.m. and no sleep, sort of rambling.

 

[Renfield]

*grumble* damnable bastards don't have the Gimli avatar or that smily face avatars any more... I'll destroy them all.

 

[Hunter]

Here is the old wizard Gygax's original treatise on alignment.
Sometimes it is good to go back to the original to then make your own judgements:
To quote:

'Good & Evil:
Basically stated, the tenets of good are human rights, or in the case of AD&D, creature rights. Each creature is entitled to life, relative freedom, and the prospect of happiness. Cruelty and suffering are undesirable. Evil, on the other hand, does not concern itself with rights or happiness: purpose is the determinant.

Neutral Evil: Similar to the neutral good alignment, that of neutral evil holds that neither groups nor individuals have great meaning. This ethos holds that seeking to promote weal for all actually brings woe to the truly deserving. Natural forces which are meant to cull out the weak and stupid are artificially supressed by so-called good, and the fittest are wrongfully held back, so whatever means are expedient can be used by the powerful to gain and maintain their dominance, without concern for anything.

Lawful Evil:Obviously, all order is not good, nor are all laws beneficial. Lawful evil creatures consider order as the means by which each group is properly placed in the cosmos, from lowest to highest, strongest to first, weakest last. Good is seen as an excuse to promote the mediocrity of the whole and suppress the better and more capable, while lawful evilness allows each group to structure itself and fix its place as compared to others, serving the stronger but being served by the weaker.

Chaotic Evil: The chaotic evil creature holds that individual freedom and choice is important, and that other individuals and their freedoms are unimportant if they cannot be held by the individuals through their own strength and merit. Thus, law and order tends to promote not individuals but groups, and groups suppress individual volition and success.'

He goes on to say;
'Each of these cases for alignment is, of course, stated rather simplisticaly and ideally, for philosophical and moral reasonings are completely subjective according to the acculturation of the individual. You, as DM, must establish the meanings and boundaries of law and order as opposed to chaos and anarchy, as well as the divisions between right and good as opposed to hurtful and evil.'- end quote.

According to this, I think Shivamuffin and Takyris are right on with there words on Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil.

~Hunter

 

[shivamuffin]

Thanks, and it's nice to see that there are people that still refer to the " Bible " of D&D and all roleplaying games! Although wordy, the Gygax model for alignments is the best. He also wisely stated that alignments are not to be taken too literally, else they will spoil the game. Real people, even the evil ones, teeter between the lines. Hitler was considered a kind and fatherly man by his secretarial staff, Napoleon wrote beautiful poetry to his lover Josephine and was a softy for babies, and even Stalin could not raise a finger against his daughter ( Who married a Jew, had a child, and basically openly hated the man ).

I've played in too many groups where alignment was taken too literally, and the campaign suffered.

" You can't do that!! That's a chaotic act, and you're NE!! " Blow it out your ass was my response.

My point: Evil does not have to be literal, or cliche. Nor does good for that matter.

GSI

 

[Hunter]

Right on!

These are merely guidelines for the DMs use anyway.
A base to extrapolate on to give the game a sense of reality.
Concepts for belief systems, not judging someones immediate action. Even then thats for the DM to judge.
I have played with players who are 'rules lawyers' so to speak and it detracts from the game. They are more often interested in telling you how to play than they are in role playing.
To use your example, your friend doesn't understand alignments anyway, considering a neutral evil is 'the ends justifies the means'
A chaotic action is a moot point for that alignment.

~Hunter

 

[shivamuffin]

I have played with players who are 'rules lawyers' so to speak and it detracts from the game. They are more often interested in telling you how to play than they are in role playing.

Indeed...

An interesting plot twist for alignments would be to do some ethics wrenching.

A LG community has to decide to commit genocide against a nearby orc tribe, or else face certain extermination themselves. To carry out the deed, the community has to hire the types of cold hearted bastards that would likely do the deed....The evil party has a job!
Yes, the LG'ers may be able to justify he extermination of the orks as within their rights, but morally it may disturb many of them....Afterall, it means killing the children and women too...the pregnant, and the old ( If there are any old orks!? )...It's a grisly task.

A CG group is on an ancient dam. Miles down river there are thousands of orcs ravaging and raping there way across the civilized lands. Destroying the dam will send a wave of destruction across the orc armies and end the threat...It will also kill thousands of people, people that are being attacked by the orcs. If the orcs are not stopped, they will lay waste to 2/3 of the realm before harvest, and there won't be an army ready to face the orcs until spring.
What can the party do? Will they destroy the dam? Would an evil party do it without question? even evil people have friends, loved ones, and family...Could they do it?

If the rules lawyers have their way, it all becomes too predictable and sterile. Good gamers and good DM's will tackle the problem, and let the ethical consequences take hold. This adds realism, depth, and flavor to the game...Elements that make for memorable gaming.

GSI

 

[Renfield]

Oooh, I like that, makes me tingly "You do this, you save thousands of lives but potentially destroy those close to you. You do that many die though those close to you might live... might being a key word." Like one of those Star Trek philosophical decisions Q or what not would put people through... The ones I hated

 

[shivamuffin]

Indeed, it really spices up the sessions. I have a dark side and it seeps into my gaming it seems.

GSI