D&D 5E Absence of Low Level Summoning Spells

[Amrûnril]

How about a Moon Druid 6/Conjuror 14?

Moon Druid (Giant Constrictor Snake form) is useful BTW for restraining a huge or gargantuan enemy so that all your pets can attack it at advantage. 60 HP may not sound like a lot at 20th level, but I value it more than I value the extra spells I'd get as a Land Druid.

This sounds like it would be an interesting character (if you expect a lot of play to actually happen at level 20- I'm not sure how many tables this is a good assumption at), but if your goal is to play a conjuring Wizard, playing as a Druid for the first 5 to 6 levels of the game probably isn't a good fit.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

This sounds like it would be an interesting character (if you expect a lot of play to actually happen at level 20- I'm not sure how many tables this is a good assumption at), but if your goal is to play a conjuring Wizard, playing as a Druid for the first 5 to 6 levels of the game probably isn't a good fit.

A lot of people try to invent new "classes" for new ideas, but in this case, it's basically a "Summoner" class with a new capstone of "All your minions get a ton of temp HP." If you wanted to actually write this up as a "Summoner" you'd probably need to draw out the class and level progression for the reader's sake, but it would basically go Wizard 1, Druid 1-5, Wizard 2-7, Druid 6, Wizard 8-14. Getting Wizard early gives you a familiar, Mage Armor (great for wildshape), Shield, wizard cantrips, and some rituals for that Wizard flavor; getting Druid 5 early is important so you get your main early spell (Conjure Animals), which is important because it allows you to keep progressing in power between levels 7-12 even though you're only gaining higher-level spell slots instead of higher-level spells--Conjure Animals is one of the few low-level spells which actually competes with or outclasses actual 5th level spells when cast out of a 5th level slot. (Hold Person is pretty good too.) Also, you will still feel like you're progressing because you gain access to new wizardy abilities on a regular basis. They're just not technically labelled as high-level spells.

After that you can pretty much take your Druid 6 level any time you feel like you want to start turning into giant snakes and rhinos.

You wind up as a full caster who never gets access to Wish but does get 1664 HP of mud mephit out of a single 9th level spell slot, which is its own kind of compensation. Some people might have fun with it. Watch out for MAD though. I recommend boosting Int instead of Wis.

Your big problem is going to be concentration economy, because most of the things you'd like to do to support your animal summons (Entangle, Faerie Fire) require concentration, and you're busy concentration on Conjure Animals. But. At 14th level (or 15th if you took Druid 6 early) you get Planar Binding, which makes the concentration issue go away for at least a few of your summons. Before 14th level you can consider animating a few zombies with Animate Dead and supporting them with druid spells instead.

Ultimately it's not a powerful build, and I probably wouldn't play one... but if I wound up playing one anyway I'd have a blast.

 

[Amrûnril]

Yes, but the goal isn't to create a new summoner class, its to allow the existing Conjurer subclass, which is already intended to function effectively as a summoner, to access that playstyle before level 7. Playing an entirely different class for five of the first six levels of the game may yield a very interesting character, but if the goal is to support the identity of the Conjurer as a wizard subclass, it entirely defeats the purpose.

 

[steeldragons]

Yes, but the goal isn't to create a new summoner class, its to allow the existing Conjurer subclass, which is already intended to function effectively as a summoner, to access that playstyle before level 7.

That is quite a large assumption. Perhaps the Conjurer subclass is built precisely the way it is supposed to...being a conjurer, and producing a Poke-digi-yokai-"summoner" is not, actually, a consideration.

 

[Amrûnril]

That is quite a large assumption. Perhaps the Conjurer subclass is built precisely the way it is supposed to...being a conjurer, and producing a Poke-digi-yokai-"summoner" is not, actually, a consideration.

Given that their level 14 ability is a direct buff to summoned creatures and that their level 10 ability removes the biggest downside of Conjure Elemental, I think it's fairly clear that Conjurers are meant, at least in part, to be good at summoning. I'm not suggesting that it should be the only thing they do or that other classes shouldn't be able to do forms of summoning that they can't, but the elemental conjuring wizard is an iconic fantasy archetype, and I think there's a lot of middle ground available between a being "Poke-digi-yokai-summoner" and not being able to conjure so much as a mephit before level 7.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Yes, but the goal isn't to create a new summoner class, its to allow the existing Conjurer subclass, which is already intended to function effectively as a summoner, to access that playstyle before level 7. Playing an entirely different class for five of the first six levels of the game may yield a very interesting character, but if the goal is to support the identity of the Conjurer as a wizard subclass, it entirely defeats the purpose.

Oh, I see. I apologize for not making it clear that I was changing the subject slightly.

Sent from my SM-G355M using Tapatalk

 

[Mephista]

Land Druids may be the have ended up being the best summoners, but given their level 10 and 14 abilities (Focused Conjuration and Durable Summons), I think it's clear that Conjurers are intended to be effective as well. A player who wants to follow this pathway shouldn't have to wait until level 7 to get started.

The difference here is that being a focused summoner is not the intent of the Conjurer class. If you pick Conjurer for the express intent of being a summoner, then you going to be disappointed, because that is not what the subclass is for. Every core book subclass is unique in theme and style. The overlap is minimal. Because of that design decision, you simply cannot have the Conjurer and Land Druid be equals here. Furthermore, there's the Necromancer, the pet-minion wizard.

You asked in your first post if it was an oversight or a deliberate design decision. It was deliberate.

If you want a home brew summoner-wizard, then your best bet is to drop the Conjurer class entirely and make your own that either steals druid spells/abilities in a kind of hybrid class, or to design entirely new spells. In either case, be prepared to destroy any reason someone might play a Land Druid (or Necromaner) by stealing their niche.

 

[Amrûnril]

The Conjurer isn't exclusively a summoner, but then again neither is the Land Druid. Both classes will be casting plenty of non-summoning spells, and given the fundamental differences between their spellcasting mechanics and the rest of their spell lists (as well as the druid's shapeshifting ability), I don't think I agree that being equals with regard to summoning would undermine the Land Druid.

And as far as niche differentiation is concerned, it seems to me that summoning should be, and to some extent already has been, partitioned so as to leave room for all three of the subclasses you mention. The Land Druid should be the best at summoning beasts and fey creatures, the Necromancer at summoning undead, and the Conjurer at summoning elementals. Land Druids and Necromancers will retain competitive advantages in their own niches regardless of whether Conjurers need to wait until level 7 to begin summoning (and whatever others may be looking for in a "summoning class", my concern is with early access rather than with eventual effectiveness).

 

[Ahglock]

Hell id say the wizard should be better at it. All the wizard is is spells. He has the worst hp, AC, saves, class features outside spell casting. Make them a better summoner when playing a conjuror.

 

[Otterscrubber]

I have to say I agree, I was a bit disappointed in the summoning spells. I would have thought they would have had a relatively low level generic summoning spell (like level 2 or 3) that would scale based on burning a higher level slot for the casting. This would have allowed low level casters to summon things and nicely be able to summon more powerful creatures as they level. 5E seems designed for this, they certainly applied this concept to many healing and damage spells so I'm not sure why they would neglect summoning in this regard. Would be easy to house rule this and make a new spell to do this, post in the house rules forums and see what feedback you get.

Summoning is a favorite concept of mine, I've always enjoyed them in pen and paper as well as "pet classes" in MMORPGs that I have played online.