Abstract HP

[HeavenShallBurn]

A high level monk is using magical (Chi) enhancement to pull off those tricks; they are not something that a person in tip-top athletic conditioning can pull off. This is evident and understood in the make-up of the class. Hit points on the other hand are not magical enhancement or toughness.

Fast Movement (Ex) At 3rd level, a monk gains an enhancement bonus to her speed, as shown on Table: The Monk. A monk in armor or carrying a medium or heavy load loses this extra speed.

Important part bolded, the ability is Extraordinary

Extraordinary abilities are nonmagical, though they may break the laws of physics....These abilities cannot be disrupted in combat, as spells can, and they generally do not provoke attacks of opportunity. Effects or areas that negate or disrupt magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities. They are not subject to dispelling, and they function normally in an antimagic field.

The ability of monks to make this leap may be incredible and impossible IRL but it is also non-magical

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

If you don't like HP as it is you can do the following....

Invent houserules
Buy new HP system from 3rd party developeer
Use HP system from another game
Play another game if its a dealbreaker for you
Re flavor current HP system to suit own needs
Accept HP as it is anyway

Any option I missed?

He was not saying he does not like HP or even suggesting the mechanics needed to be changed. The OP was specifically asking why there is a disconnect between the fluff of HP and the mechanics of the system they are attached to and why some people are so reluctant to admit that gap. See Darsuul's post for the best explanation of where the system issues are.

 

[Andor]

A high level monk is using magical (Chi) enhancement to pull off those tricks; they are not something that a person in tip-top athletic conditioning can pull off. This is evident and understood in the make-up of the class. Hit points on the other hand are not magical enhancement or toughness.

... The current world record for the long jump is 8.95 meters, or about 29 feet.

A 20th level fighter with 24 ranks in jump and a 16 strength can beat that without really trying (IE taking 10) in Full Plate Mail. That's without any magic whatsoever, or even any real concentration on that aspect of the character.

5 Ranks in tumble (+2), the Run Feat (+4), the Acrobatic feat (+2) and Skill Focus (+3) would let a Human beat the world record at 6th level (10 skill ranks) while taking 10 at medium encumbrance. Which with a strength of 16 is 77-153 pounds.

In other words, with no magic at all a 6th level D&D character who concentrated at jumping could break our worlds records while carrying another person.

D&D does not simulate weak mortals. Whatever the field, whatever the test, D&D characters are over the top. And then you add magic. Can we stop pretending that this is a strictly simulationist system for ordainary people? If that's what you want GURPs is right down the Aisle and still has the best supplements on the market.

 

[SKyOdin]

...
Second, they fluff it as representing all these abstract things, but then they go ahead and treat it like pure physical injury in the actual rules. Examples:

"Rider" effects on attacks, that only trigger if the attack inflicts damage (e.g., poison, energy drain). This implies that any attack which inflicts damage has actually connected and caused a wound--none of this "near-miss" business.
Environmental hazards which do a given amount of damage per round. This implies that damage is independent of character; that is, 10 points of damage to Joe Commoner and 10 points of damage to Thorzod Tarrasquebane means they're taking the same amount of "punishment." Thorzod may soak it better, but he's getting hit just as hard.
Healing magic which heals a given amount of damage. This implies that 10 points of damage represents the same degree of injury regardless of whether Joe or Thorzod suffered it. Plus, of course, it's called "heal," not "restore your mystical defense abstraction."
Natural healing is on a daily basis. This implies that hit points represent real injury, since you don't recover any hit points by taking a five-minute rest break.
Hit points do not change regardless of character status. If you're paralyzed or unconscious, you keep all your hit points. This implies that the ability to consciously dodge and defend is not a factor in your hit point total.
Constitution affects your hit points, but Wisdom and Dexterity do not. This implies that being physically durable is important to determining your hit point total, but willpower, perception, and quick reflexes are irrelevant.
...

Dausuul, I have to disagree with you on a few of your points. Particularly the bit about Natural Healing on a daily basis. You use it as an excuse for why Hit Points are a bad abstraction, but it is actually a pretty good example of where hit points work very well. The part you forgot to mention is that Natural Healing scales with character level. For example, if a 20th level character takes 20 points of damage, he can heal it all up in one night of rest. If a third level character takes 3 points of damage, he can heal it all back in one night of rest. Thus, the 3 hit points of damage that a third level character takes is an equivalent injury to what a twentieth level character takes when he is hit for 20 hit points of damage.

Hit Points are a pretty simple abstraction. Characters' Con score and the size of their hit dice represent their sheer physical toughness. Their level represents their ability to reduce the effect of oncoming attacks. If either a 1st or 20th level character lose 20% of their hit points, then they have taken equivalent amounts of damage. In other words, losing 10 hit points means completely different things for a 1st and a 20th level character.

Now then, their are a few anomalies in this system. However, I don't agree with your first point. It is pretty easy to assume that whenever a character loses hit points, at least some physical contact was made, generally enough to carry the "rider". Second, it is possible to imagine that a paralyzed or unconscious character is not completely helpless. When someone is paralyzed, all it means is that they lack sufficient motor function to walk around or fight, not that they are completely incapable of the small movements necessary to avoid damage. Finally, there is no reason for Wisdom or Dexterity to affect hit points since the scaling of hit points has more to do with experience. At level one, most of a character's hit points represent sheer physical toughness.

Now then, this leaves two remaining anomalies: Healing and Environmental damage. However, you yourself have admitted earlier in the thread that you can imagine a higher-level character capable of fighting his way out of the acid where a lesser character would just collapse and die.

I have to admit that magical healing is only large anomaly in the 3E hit point system. However, there are signs that healing might change for 4E. In SWSE, the second wind ability heals one quarter of the character's hit points. A direct proportion of the total. There was also talk that a heal check "allowed a character to call upon their own healing reserve." This could mean that healing works differently in 4E than in 3E.

The only other problem with the hit point system that you did not mention is that weapons do the same amount of damage no matter who wields them. However, we can also be pretty confident that this is changing in 4E too.

Overall, I think hit points are an excellent abstraction of damage, and it looks like 4E might be cleaning up some of the anomalies in the system.

 

[Kaisoku]

I like how people toss around terms blithely like "normal people will die from a hit or two", etc.


Human beings are surprisingly resilient creatures.

I live in Canada, and the city I'm in was once called the "Stabbing Capital" of Canada, because most of our murders were via stabbings.

It was customary to hear that a person was stabbed a number of times approaching 20, and surviving. Most of them were in a hospital maybe an hour later, but that's no different than a cleric running up and curing someone that's stabilized at -9 hitpoints.

There was one stabbing that occured where some drunk guys got into a fight and one stabbed the other over 20 times, 12 of which in the chest. The person stabbed was able to fend off his attacker, get (as in walk) to a payphone and call for help on his own.

These weren't marines.. these were middleaged men, drunk, and probably out of shape (didn't hold any particular strenuous jobs, etc).


People can take a lot of damage before dying outright. Then again, one well placed thumb strike can kill a man too.


Now, I'm not saying that all HP should be considered solely toughness. But I'm not against the idea that a person can take 17 sword slashes and only grumble through it a bit before moving on.

Personally... I'm fine with the HP system as is, because it handles quickly and cinematically and gets what I want done. If I run into corner cases, such as falling damage, then I would just come up with rules specific for it (falling does CON damage, or something).

Oddly enough, these "problems" and "corner cases" have never come up to the point that it's ruined our suspension of disbelief. *shrug*

 

[xechnao]

Give a backstbing like damage multiplier to every weapon.
So now you have multiple damage attacks.
These attacks work as normal attacks only that if you declare them you provoke an AoO from the target. If you succeed though the target has to make a Reflex save to resist the application of the damage multiplier. A successful AoO should have the attacker make a Reflex save or lose his attack.

EDIT: regarding ranged attacks:
Rangers can shoot arrows with the damage multiplier without provoking an AoO. However when they declare such an attack they suffer -5 to their attack roll bonus. The target can Reflex save to avoid the multiplier as normal.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

He was not saying he does not like HP or even suggesting the mechanics needed to be changed. The OP was specifically asking why there is a disconnect between the fluff of HP and the mechanics of the system they are attached to and why some people are so reluctant to admit that gap. See Darsuul's post for the best explanation of where the system issues are.

yeah, you can give "No Prize" explainations all day long, but the primary issue I see is that the extended mechanics have not flowed from the official flavor of hp, and in most cases are described in ways that make the most sense with a "hp loss = physical injury" flavor.

poison rules : One dose of poison smeared on a weapon or some other object affects just a single target. A poisoned weapon or object retains its venom until the weapon scores a hit or the object is touched (unless the poison is wiped off before a target comes in contact with it).

Damage reduction : A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. A certain kind of weapon can sometimes damage the creature normally, as noted below.

The interaction between poison and damage reduction : If a creature has sufficient damage reduction to avoid taking any damage from the attack, the poison does not affect it. Traps that cause damage from weapons, needles, and the like sometimes contain injury poisons.

And abilities like improved grab or the monk's stunning fist which make the difference between hitting and missing a non abstract propisition...

On the other end of the scale, abilities are added that are redundant of what hit points supposedly already represent.

Defensive Roll (Ex) : The rogue can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than she otherwise would.

(heck, between that, evasion and improved evasion, why not just give the rogue a ton of hit points since everything she is doing to avoid damage is supposedly already represented in them)

****

Anyway, probably devoted too much energy to this brick wall, so I shall just say : If one of the 4e articles faced head on how the abstract hp flavor text had come to less and less match the mechanics, and gave examples of things they were going to remove and change to make a truely abstract system, that would be one thing. But so far, all I've seen is explaining new mechanics with "well, hp has always been abstract, afterall...." To take it seriously I would need to see "...and in this edition we're taking a hatchet to all the rules that have diluted that and making it mechanically fit." Then give us a single example, like DR disapearing.

 

[loseth]

If one of the 4e articles faced head on how the abstract hp flavor text had come to less and less match the mechanics, and gave examples of things they were going to remove and change to make a truely abstract system, that would be one thing. But so far, all I've seen is explaining new mechanics with "well, hp has always been abstract, afterall...." To take it seriously I would need to see "...and in this edition we're taking a hatchet to all the rules that have diluted that and making it mechanically fit."

As someone who likes (very) abstract HP, I agree wholeheartedly (well, with the sentiment anyway--I disagree that the flavour-mechanics disconnect has become worse over time; IMO it was just as much an issue in 1e as in 3e).

 

[TwoSix]

The ability of monks to make this leap may be incredible and impossible IRL but it is also non-magical

In D&D, "magical" has a strong rule-based meaning, in that it's a product of some arcane or divine spell or ritual and can be dispelled or nullified in an anitmagic field. However, the ability to make leaps of hundreds of feet is certainly "magical" in the sense that it's utterly fantastic and beyond the potential of any human.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

In D&D, "magical" has a strong rule-based meaning, in that it's a product of some arcane or divine spell or ritual and can be dispelled or nullified in an anitmagic field. However, the ability to make leaps of hundreds of feet is certainly "magical" in the sense that it's utterly fantastic and beyond the potential of any human.

I think the problem is that you are conflating fantastic and magical when the two are not the same.

1 a: based on fantasy : not real b: conceived or seemingly conceived by unrestrained fancy c: so extreme as to challenge belief : unbelievable; broadly : exceedingly large or great
2: marked by extravagant fantasy or extreme individuality : eccentric
3fantastic : excellent superlative <a fantastic meal>

1: of or relating to magic
2 a: having seemingly supernatural qualities or powers b: giving a feeling of enchantment

Now these two are closely related, indeed something can occupy both at once but they are not THE SAME. To use Andor's example of the fighter they can do the exact same thing and they don't even have the mystical flavour text attached. It is fantastic in being so extreme as to challenge belief and impossible IRL, under certain definitions it could qualify as a supernatural quality which would put it as magical. But that same definition of supernatural would put identify EVERYTHING a character past about 5th level does is supernatural.

yeah, you can give "No Prize" explainations all day long, but the primary issue I see is that the extended mechanics have not flowed from the official flavor of hp, and in most cases are described in ways that make the most sense with a "hp loss = physical injury" flavor.

I was trying to explain to one of the other posters who focused solely on the issue of abandoning HP mechanics as they stand for an entirely different system. What else could I do?

SKyOdin I've seen your post, interesting points when I get back from work I will address it directly and at length since I don't have time here.