Abstract HP

[HeavenShallBurn]

So suspension of disbelief is seriously compromised above level 1, if you do not see HP as an abstract measure of "will to live".

Why does it hurt suspension of disbelief? I'm not trolling I just don't understand how it can be so detrimental to some people given the fantastic nature of the rest of the game. Why is it so hard in a game where people cast lightning bolts, meteor swarms, and summon creatures from other planes of existence for a character to survive being run through a dozen times or struck with thirty arrows and survive?

 

[Dausuul]

Hit points representing something other than raw toughness breaks down when you apply it to environmental hazards. Set aside for now the falling issue; how about being plunged into acid that inflicts 10d6 damage a round? Defensive skills will not let you dodge the acid. Luck will not make it stop eating into your skin. Morale will not keep the flesh on your bones. The only way you're going to survive longer than the next guy is if you can take more punishment.

Now, perhaps there is a spiritual component to this. Maybe your fighting spirit and will to survive are so great that you can keep on clawing your way out of that acid-pit when you're little more than a blackened skeleton; and the warlord's "healing" abilities are boosting your fighting spirit, enabling you to do stuff like that. That's cool. I can work with that. But you're still a blackened skeleton.

But beyond that, I don't understand why hit points have to represent so many things. We already have rules for defensive skills--namely, AC and Reflex saves. We already have rules for luck--namely, special abilities that allow rerolls. What's wrong with hit points representing how your character is Just That Tough?

2) cold from near vacuum. being below -20 degrees F, this means 1d6 lethal damage per minute plus additional fatigue and nonlethal damage. this goes away after the real atmosphere starts so you'd only take about 10d6 damage.

Nitpick: Near vacuum would not inflict cold damage. You lose heat in space very slowly, because there's nothing to conduct heat away from you. The only way for it to leave your body is through radiation.

I feel compelled, nay - required to post this;

Each character has a varying number of hit points, just as monsters do. These hit point represent how much damage (actual or potential) the character can withstand before being killed. A certain amount of these hit points represent the actual physical punishment which can sustained. The remainder, a significant portion of hit points at higher levels, stands for skill, luck, and or magical factors. A typical man-at-arms can take about 5 hit points of damage before being killed. Let us suppose that a 10th level fighter has 55 hit points, plus a bonus of 30 hit points for his constitution, for a total of 85 hit points. This is the equivalent of about 18 hit dice for creatures, about what it would take to fill four large warhorses. It is ridiculous to assume that even a fantastic fighter can take that much punishment. The same holds true to a lesser extent for clerics, thieves, and the other classes. Thus, the majority of hit points are a symbolic of combat skill, luck (bestowed by supernatural powers), and magical forces.

Any guesses where thats from?

1st ed AD&D players handbook, page 34.

And this is supposed to tell us what exactly? D&D has always fudged and handwaved around hit points.

 

[Wyrmshadows]

Why does it hurt suspension of disbelief? I'm not trolling I just don't understand how it can be so detrimental to some people given the fantastic nature of the rest of the game. Why is it so hard in a game where people cast lightning bolts, meteor swarms, and summon creatures from other planes of existence for a character to survive being run through a dozen times or struck with thirty arrows and survive?

It's quite easy to understand really.

I DM a campaign, and have for a looong time, that takes exceptionally gifted folks (reflected in good stats) who are still mortal, mundane and non-magical and sets them loose in a world that contains the fantastic. They are themselves mortals even if they look fantastic. Even wizards and warlocks are still just mortals who happen to be able to, through study or bloodline, to tap into ambient magical energy. There is NOTHING intrinsically magical about someone just because they are heroes.

I have yet to read any good fantasy fiction (not mythology because that is often a symbol laden story reflective of the psycho-spiritual dynamics of the culture in question) that makes normal (or even exceptional) humans into godlike beings who can survive orbital reentry (without powerful magic) because of a stupid rule convention.

I mean honestly, to even be discussing, and attemptiong the rationalize, the bad game design that would allow for someone to survive crashing into the earth from space is when something is very wrong. D&D as played by many seems to be a silly fantasy supers game with armor instead of X-Men style bodysuits. DMs like myself can and always will houserule bad official rules.

Admittedly I already have one foot off the D&D bus as it is. I was a 4e fan (of the fluff changes anyway and the removal of the mechanical impact of alignment) however, the more I read the more I think I will be sticking with True20 and Runequest.



Wyrmshadows

 

[cwhs01]

Why does it hurt suspension of disbelief? I'm not trolling I just don't understand how it can be so detrimental to some people given the fantastic nature of the rest of the game. Why is it so hard in a game where people cast lightning bolts, meteor swarms, and summon creatures from other planes of existence for a character to survive being run through a dozen times or struck with thirty arrows and survive?

Not seeing this as a troll but a good question

It compromises suspension of disbelief if you see dnd as simulating the really real reality. I see the 4e ruleset as doing something else.

The ruleset does not give you an exact answer of what HP represents, as it depends on the situation (impaling, bursting into flames etc.). And ofcourse it leaves the specific details up to players and gm.
It seems to me theyve taken a few cues and pointers from more narativist types of rpgs. A very very good aproach imo to fantasy roleplaying.

This means that if you want HP loss to be described as huge chunks of flesh carved of off your Barbarian PC, thats cool. The scars will give him something to brag about at the next inn. The cleric can heal his wounds or the warlord can yell at him to get back in the fight (and stitch him up afterwards)...

But for the elfin rogue the same HP loss is probably best described as nicks and bruising or ripping of clothes. divine healing lifts his spirits, gives him his second wind and removes the scratches. He might also decide to ignore the pain and end the fight quickly rather than listen to the warlord whining and complaining...

Whatever works to tell a great story.

 

[Ti-bob]

The best explanation of hp that I know is :

"hp evaluate the degree of script immunity of a character. "

 

[Zephrin the Lost]

With the emphasis on cinematic action, we can look towards films such as 'Kill Bill' for unsurprisingly fitting examples of some classic and 4e D&D concepts.

The Bride kills the Crazy 88, and through luck, skill and pure grit avoids suffering a lethal blow. After the encounter she triggers her second wind and goes on to the Boss Battle, halfway through which she is bloodied which activates her 'skull shear' power.

--Z

 

[DreamChaser]

Nitpick: Near vacuum would not inflict cold damage. You lose heat in space very slowly, because there's nothing to conduct heat away from you. The only way for it to leave your body is through radiation.

That is why I presented it as the equivalent of -20 degrees rather than absolute zero (which would presumably be the equivalent of being on fire if there were a conducive material like liquid nitrogen handy). "Very slowly" in this case is about 1d6 damage per minute....so the average person wouldn't start freezing to death for a couple of minutes at least.

DC

 

[xechnao]

For each way of damage (claw attack, breath weapon, trap, acid pool, weapon) assign a special damage type on a critical confirmation roll.

For example an acid pool trap would attack your reflex defenses. If it scores and confirms a critical then it will burn you.

These special damage types should be noted as conditions: for example burnt, blinded, lethaly poisoned, crippled etch.

Some ways of damage such as weapons could have a random list of their special damage types. For these cases, you roll every time special damage is inflicted.

Now special equipment could make this confirmation roll harder or even limit the results of the random lists.

 

[cwhs01]

For each way of damage (claw attack, breath weapon, trap, acid pool, weapon) assign a special damage type on a critical confirmation roll.

Yet most people ask for a simpler game. Adding damage types is a needless complication.

But might be okay for a splatbook?

 

[vagabundo]

Because all the luck in the world will not explain why my dwarven fighter can survive orbital re-entry.

* In a 1942 paper, physiologist Hugh De Haven told of eight people who survived falls of 50 to 150 feet on dry land, many with only minor injuries. The common denominator: something to break the fall or soften the impact, such as loose dirt, the hood of a car, or, in one astonishing but verified case, an iron bar, metal screens, a skylight, and a metal-lath ceiling.

* In 1963, U.S. Marine pilot Cliff Judkins's chute didn't open after he bailed out of his crippled fighter. He fell 15,000 feet into the Pacific, suffered numerous broken bones and a collapsed lung, but lived.

* U.S. Army air force sergeant Alan Magee fell 20,000 feet from an exploding B-17 in 1943 and crashed through the skylight of a French train station. (A lesson emerges: Aim for the skylight.) Though his arm was shattered, he lived too.

* When his bomber was shot down in 1942, Soviet lieutenant I.M. Chisov fell 22,000 feet into a snowy ravine. He was badly injured but recovered.

* Luckiest of all was RAF flight sergeant Nicholas Alkemade, who leaped from his burning bomber in 1944 without a parachute at 18,000 feet. After a 90-second plunge, he crashed through tree branches in a pine forest and landed in 18 inches of snow. His only injuries: scratches, bruises, burns, and, in some accounts, a twisted knee.

Just sayin'...